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Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: ebed melech] #328218
07/23/09 02:15 PM
07/23/09 02:15 PM
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Magisterium is merely a Latin word that refers to the teaching authority of the Church. As such, it resides within the entire Body of Christ, in each person, according to his gifts and status. Bishops have a special charism to teach the true faith, but they do not have a monopoly on truth. The Pope has a special vocation, both as bishop and as pope, to expound upon the universal truth of Jesus Christ--but again, that must be understood within the context of the magisterium of the Church as a whole.

An annoying aspect of Catholics is their reference to "The Magisterium", as though it was an office or an institution, rather than a function or gift. Go to Rome, visit the Vatican City, and ask one of the guides to direct you to "The Magisterium". Lots of luck.

The problem with the notion of an overarching and extrinsic "Magisterium" (big M) is it absolves the rest of the Church both of its responsibility to seek out and teach the truth, and conversely, of its responsibility to defend the truth against error--because that, after all, is the responsibility of The Magisterium. When Catholics talk of The Magisterium, they tend to mean either (a) the Pope (with or without the Curia Romana); or (b) the Pope and the bishops. But in fact, all of us possess a portion of the magisterium of the Church, and far too few of us act upon it.

Now, with regard to all of Todd's objections to Scholastic and neo-Scholastic theologizing, I think it safe to say that, as far as the "real Catholic Church" is concerned, he's either flogging a dead horse or knocking over a straw man. The Latin Church itself doesn't hold to that, anymore, let alone try to impose it upon the Eastern Churches. The flow of theology since the middle of the last century has been in the opposite direction, from the Christian East to the Christian West, as the Latin Church rediscovered the Fathers and began abandoning wholesale the bulk of its medieval accretions. Find me a reputable Latin theologian who accepts a scholastic, hylomorphic understanding of the sacraments, for a starter.

Sure, there are some on the fringes, but a Latin traditionalist with a copy of Ott or Denzinger is almost as dangerous as an Orthodox convert with a copy of the Pedalion.

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328219
07/23/09 02:16 PM
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As to your practice of relegating the teachings of the Catholic magisterium in the 2nd millennium to the level of Latin theologumena and elevating Byzantine theologumena to the level of canonical, apostolic or magisterial authority is based on your history of discussing these issues.


Theologumena are theologumena, whether Latin or Eastern. The only things which are dogma are those elements of Tradition which are the common patrimony of the undivided Church.

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328220
07/23/09 02:20 PM
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There's wiggle room as the Administrator said - an expression of dogma may not be the best but one can't condemn the actual meaning - but what I wrote holds. As for the second, it sounds like the ageing liberal 'Call to Action' RCs who are wannabe mainline Protestants but on their own cultural terms (proletarian reverse snobbery: Our Lady of the A-Frame and Marty Haugen not Gothic Revival and organ diapasons) and the Episcopalians who now have women priests and, locally, gay weddings. Slippery slope and all that.

When your only tool is a hammer, every job looks like a nail. When your only concern is modernism, everyone who disagrees with you is a modernist. And I would appreciate if you would stop telling me what I, as a Greek Catholic, "must believe". I don't tell you, as an Orthodox, what you "must believe".

But I do find it interesting that both Latins and Orthodox want to put the Greek Catholics into a nice little box that fits in with their own conceptions of what we must or ought to be--Latins in drag.

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328221
07/23/09 02:24 PM
07/23/09 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
That said, Latins are not bound to accept the doctrines of Trent as they are written because the Latin Church itself has "developed" beyond these doctrines, and thus does not consider itself bound by them.


I am not going to waste time debating this. However, I have to say that the consistent teaching of all the Popes from John XXIII to Benedict XVI is that the doctrines defined Trent and Vatican I still stand; the Vatican has been repeating this ad nauseam. Credo of the People of God, anyone?

You don't have to agree with the Latin Church to at least represent its actual thought correctly.

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 07/23/09 02:25 PM.
Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328222
07/23/09 02:26 PM
07/23/09 02:26 PM
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Stuart,

I have often said that the "Magisterium" is not a department of the Vatican! Though some would have it so...

Fr. Deacon Daniel

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328223
07/23/09 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
And I would appreciate if you would stop telling me what I, as a Greek Catholic, "must believe". I don't tell you, as an Orthodox, what you "must believe".


I thought you shared the same faith?

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: asianpilgrim] #328226
07/23/09 02:35 PM
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I thought you shared the same faith?


Some people don't like to share.

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328228
07/23/09 02:37 PM
07/23/09 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
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As to your practice of relegating the teachings of the Catholic magisterium in the 2nd millennium to the level of Latin theologumena and elevating Byzantine theologumena to the level of canonical, apostolic or magisterial authority is based on your history of discussing these issues.


Theologumena are theologumena, whether Latin or Eastern. The only things which are dogma are those elements of Tradition which are the common patrimony of the undivided Church.


Would that reference to the common patrimony of the undivided Church then lead us inexorably to the conclusion that the teachings of every Council from Chalcedon forward are not canonically binding, since the Alexandrians, who were up until the 4th council part of the undivided Church, had no part in defining or receiving any of them subsequent to Chalcedon?

At some point determining canonical authority has to be the definitive issue, rather than simply a reference to "common patrimony"...

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: asianpilgrim] #328230
07/23/09 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Originally Posted by StuartK
And I would appreciate if you would stop telling me what I, as a Greek Catholic, "must believe". I don't tell you, as an Orthodox, what you "must believe".

I thought you shared the same faith?

An analogy: Sharing the same faith does not mean that Greeks must forget Greek and defer to Latin, and speak Latin. It does not mean that we give up our perfectly good Greek theological 'recipes' and replace them with Latin ones. We do not need the theology of the Latin Church to be Catholic. We accept the theology of the Latin Church as Catholic, but not as the standard of Catholic theology to which we must compare our theology to. Those who read the documents of the Catholic Church should be able to see this easily.

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: Administrator] #328231
07/23/09 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Administrator
Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Originally Posted by StuartK
And I would appreciate if you would stop telling me what I, as a Greek Catholic, "must believe". I don't tell you, as an Orthodox, what you "must believe".

I thought you shared the same faith?

An analogy: Sharing the same faith does not mean that Greeks must forget Greek and defer to Latin, and speak Latin. It does not mean that we give up our perfectly good Greek theological 'recipes' and replace them with Latin ones. We do not need the theology of the Latin Church to be Catholic. We accept the theology of the Latin Church as Catholic, but not as the standard of Catholic theology to which we must compare our theology to. Those who read the documents of the Catholic Church should be able to see this easily.


I am not referring to Greek and Latin Catholics, but to Greek Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. As you will note, my puzzlement refers to the exchange between Serge "the young fogey" (Orthodox) and Stuart (Greek Catholic).

Last edited by asianpilgrim; 07/23/09 03:02 PM.
Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: Administrator] #328232
07/23/09 03:01 PM
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Would that reference to the common patrimony of the undivided Church then lead us inexorably to the conclusion that the teachings of every Council from Chalcedon forward are not canonically binding, since the Alexandrians, who were up until the 4th council part of the undivided Church, had no part in defining or receiving any of them subsequent to Chalcedon?


The point is moot, as it is commonly recognized that both the Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian Churches all share the same belief about the nature of Jesus Christ. As long as there is unity in faith, unity in expression is not necessary.


Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328234
07/23/09 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
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Would that reference to the common patrimony of the undivided Church then lead us inexorably to the conclusion that the teachings of every Council from Chalcedon forward are not canonically binding, since the Alexandrians, who were up until the 4th council part of the undivided Church, had no part in defining or receiving any of them subsequent to Chalcedon?


The point is moot, as it is commonly recognized that both the Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian Churches all share the same belief about the nature of Jesus Christ. As long as there is unity in faith, unity in expression is not necessary.



Not entirely...they do not accept nor have they received as authoritative the decisions of other councils. Although I agree that uniformity of expression is not necessary...

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328235
07/23/09 03:13 PM
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am not referring to Greek and Latin Catholics, but to Greek Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. As you will note, my puzzlement refers to the exchange between Serge "the young fogey" (Orthodox) and Stuart (Greek Catholic).


I believe everything the Orthodox Church believes in matters of faith. Young Fogey insists that, as a Greek Catholic, this is not possible. He wants me to be an Oreo Cookie, black on the outside, white on the inside. So, I think, do you. Both of you want Greek Catholics to be ritually Orthodox and spiritually and doctrinally Latin, albeit for different reasons. Some Orthodox wants that as a way of differentiating the Orthodox from the Greek Catholics and thus maintaining a wall of separation that never really existed in the first place. And some Latins want it that way because it maintains the praestantia ritus latini and keeps us in our place.

Serge has also changed his position significantly since the last time we met in person. Then, he fully accepted that I was an Orthodox Christian in communion with Rome, and believed that was what Greek Catholics should aspire to become. Why he takes a disparaging view of those Greek Catholics who live in the fullness of Tradition, I don't know. It was not always so.

Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328237
07/23/09 03:17 PM
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Not entirely...they do not accept nor have they received as authoritative the decisions of other councils. Although I agree that uniformity of expression is not necessary...


There is a Joint Christological Statement between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (and a parallel one between the Oriental Orthodox and Catholic Churches) that acknowledge the common faith regarding Jesus Christ. The failure to reestablish communion between the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox results from secondary issues, including revocation of anathemas, commemoration of martyrs on both sides, and disciplinary issues.

As always when common sense and reason fail to prevail, monastic extremists on both sides are the stumbling block. Which is why we need to keep monasticism and humanism in dynamic tension. After all, both Patriarch Ignatios and Patriarch Photios are saints, even though they stood on opposite sides regarding the reintegration of former iconoclasts into the Church.

Last edited by StuartK; 07/23/09 03:18 PM.
Re: Orthodox in Communion with Rome [Re: StuartK] #328239
07/23/09 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
As always when common sense and reason fail to prevail, monastic extremists on both sides are the stumbling block. Which is why we need to keep monasticism and humanism in dynamic tension. After all, both Patriarch Ignatios and Patriarch Photios are saints, even though they stood on opposite sides regarding the reintegration of former iconoclasts into the Church.


Excellent points and example!

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