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#330740 - 08/24/09 10:49 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Deacon John Montalvo]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
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...in a private conversation I had with him about the RDL, I did not come away with the same impression that you have. Father Robert may be polite, but above all else he is quite candid. In fact, in reference to a critic of the RDL, he used the term "loose cannon." Of course, none of this is of any import to Fr Robert. As he stated, he is a liturgical historian, he is not involved in making pastoral decisions which, again in his words, are best left to the bishops. So he has no opinion to state on the RDL, but did comment with disapproval about a critic of the RDL?
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#330744 - 08/24/09 11:24 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Deacon John Montalvo]
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John
Member
Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5891
Loc: Virginia
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Fr Robert was in Phoenix during January 2008 speaking to the Jesuit Alumni in Arizona, and in a private conversation I had with him about the RDL, I did not come away with the same impression that you have. Father Robert may be polite, but above all else he is quite candid. In fact, in reference to a critic of the RDL, he used the term "loose cannon." Of course, none of this is of any import to Fr Robert. As he stated, he is a liturgical historian, he is not involved in making pastoral decisions which, again in his words, are best left to the bishops. Father Deacon John, I agree that Father Robert Taft, SJ, seems to stay away from the bishops and their “pastoral decisions”. Yet I think what he actually wrote in a book under his name is what counts: Father Robert Taft on Reforming the Liturgy:
"Furthermore, most people are not especially creative in any other aspect of their existence, and there is no reason to think that they will be when it comes to liturgy. They can, however, be drawn to participate in a common heritage far nobler and richer than the creation of anyone of us individually. What we need is not further to reinvent the wheel, not to reshape our liturgy every time we read a new article, but just to take what we have and use it very well."
[“A History of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, Volume VI, The Communion, Thanksgiving, and Concluding Rites” (2008, Orientalia Christiana Analecta, 281, Pontificio Instituto Orientale)] I strongly agree with Father Taft on this point. The Ruthenian bishops have harmed the liturgical unity of the Byzantine Church. They have violated the Liturgical Instruction. They have violated Liturgical Authenticam. They need to correct their mistakes by repealing the Revised Divine Liturgy and by promulgating the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy, in a translation that is complete and accurate, conforming fully to the Vatican directives. John
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#330780 - 08/24/09 08:36 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Job]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1323
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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[quote] It is interesting, however, that after the promulgation, ACROD had Prof. Thompson at one of their clergy meetings, each priest received one of the "Teal Terror" books, and ACROD discussed utilizing it as well. I know that some of the "outrage" that has been expressed here for translations, was heard. Has Metropolitan Nicholas expressed any opinion as to the text of the RDL Liturgicon (i.e. the inclusive language, and the memorialization of a truncated celebration) ? Just curious. Dn. Robert
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#330782 - 08/24/09 08:43 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Paul B]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1323
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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We used to talk about the dark days under Metropolitan Stephen. Communicating infants and cross-kissing could get one a priest transferred to the boonies. We carried on hoping for better times. Judson was like a Prague spring. And we know he would not have promulgated the RDL. He exploded in anger the first time it was tried with the horrid Thompson music at the seminary. Now, under Archbishop Basil & the other bishops times are darker still. We pray and wait for a real Spring, when the Liturgy can be Byzantine again. When our Liturgy is purified from the Woodstock generation. When Roman Catholics are not put in charge of our music. In reply to Blessed Theodore: First, Eternal Memory to Archbishop Judson. He made some difficult decisions and was well respected by the clergy and laity of the Metropolia. I do not judge him; I just want to avoid misconceptions. I ask you to ponder who was it that purged the old Seminary staff and replaced it with those serving in the time frame of the new translation? Who was it that approved the radically different "feminist" language of the Sisters of St Basil Matins and Vespers publications. The so-called RDL actually "softened" the language. That is all that I ask. If you are not fully informed then please don't offer misleading or unfounded information. Thank you. S'nami Boh! Fr Deacon Paul You make a good point. I have copies of those Uniontown Basilian translations of the Divine Office. The "feminist" language I find to be quite offensive, and a good example of dragging down the sacred with "P.C.". Dn. Robert
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#330786 - 08/24/09 09:37 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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You make a good point. I have copies of those Uniontown Basilian translations of the Divine Office. The "feminist" language I find to be quite offensive, and a good example of dragging down the sacred with "P.C.". Aren't they just awful, though? We used their translation of Great Compline every year at the March for Life service at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. I basically said, "There is no way I am going to sing 'O God of our ancestors'--and I did not. There were several other places where the inanity went beyond tolerable levels.
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#330790 - 08/24/09 09:53 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Paul B]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
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Who was it that approved the radically different "feminist" language of the Sisters of St Basil Matins and Vespers publications. The so-called RDL actually "softened" the language. Yes, the language is there in the Sister's books. I am thankful for those books, for the sisters initiative; I am not thankful for that language. Consider, however, that those books were "Compiled from approved sources by THE LITURGICAL COMMISSION of THE SISTERS OF THE ORDER OF ST. BASIL THE GREAT" and the books also note they are "For Private Use." An interim liturgicon, like Passaic's, did not have the "inclusivity" issue although it had its own innovations, abridgment, and some aspects of the RDL's outlook on the liturgy. But its promulgation states: "This text is approved for provisional use in churches of the Eparchy of Passaic"; and "The text of the Divine Liturgy is the official text of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia sui iuris of Pittsburgh published in 1965 and approved by the Sacred Congregation for Oriental Churches, Prot. No. 380/62, on December 10, 1964." (The latter statement is not correct since the text was changed somewhat.) Finally the RDL: At the direction of the Council of Hierarchs ... the Metropolitan Liturgical Commission prepared a revision of the text, rubrics and music of the Divine Liturgy of Our Holy Father John Chrysostom and the Divine Liturgy of Our Holy Father Basil the Great.
... From this date forward this is the only text to be used in the churches and other places of the Byzantine Metropolitan Church Sui Iuris of Pittsburgh, U.S.A., anything else to the contrary whatsoever, even worthy of most special mention, notwithstanding. So why all the stink now? Official; "At the direction of the Council of Hierarchs"; Metropolitan Liturgical Commission; for the Metropolia; making it a statement about our Church; and even accompanied by a video (catechetical DVD) that misinforms us about the justification based on the original language in order to convince us the "inclusivity" is desired and linguistically correct. '"softened" the language' -- Not really, but it did make it official.
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#330793 - 08/24/09 10:11 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3769
Loc: Washington, PA
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Has Metropolitan Nicholas expressed any opinion as to the text of the RDL Liturgicon (i.e. the inclusive language, and the memorialization of a truncated celebration) ? Just curious.
Dn. Robert
Fr. Deacon, See for yourself: http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgyNo inclusive language but the Liturgy itself is what has been the standard in the ACROD and the Byzantine Metropolia for sometime: 1 verse Antiphons, no Little Litanies, no Litanies of the Catechumens and the Faithful, no Litany of Supplication after the Great Entrance, i.e. the memorialized truncated celebration Fr. Deacon Lance
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#330797 - 08/24/09 10:29 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Paul B]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3769
Loc: Washington, PA
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Who was it that approved the radically different "feminist" language of the Sisters of St Basil Matins and Vespers publications. Fr Deacon Paul Fr. Deacon Paul, I sympathize with your concern, but of the 5 Uniontown Basilian Office books 4 were published in the 80s which would mean Metropolitan Stephen approved those. The Triodion alone was published in 1995 under Metropolitan Judson. Fr. Deacon Lance
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#330798 - 08/24/09 10:41 PM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3769
Loc: Washington, PA
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There really isn't that much inclusive language in the Uniontown books and it is easily corrected. All I can find is "Blessed is the One" rather than "Blessed is the Man" for Psalm 1 in the Vesper book and "God of our ancestors" rather than "God of our Fathers" in the Great and Lesser Doxologies and "loves humankind" rather than "loves mankind" for the dismissal in the Matins book.
The RDL uses "God of our Fathers" in the Great Doxology. Would that they had used "loves humankind" (if they had to inclusivise it) rather than "loves us all".
Fr. Deacon Lance
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My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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#330809 - 08/25/09 05:48 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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So, my daughters and wife ask, what is wrong with the word "mankind"?
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#330812 - 08/25/09 06:43 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 183
Loc: Medina, OH
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I agree, what is wrong with mankind? Every time I get into a discussion with a RDL supporter, they pipe up "it's not a big deal, it's just one word." And I say "exactly, if it doesn't have meaning why change it at all?" The conversation, of course, ends there.
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#330814 - 08/25/09 07:45 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Member
Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
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Has Metropolitan Nicholas expressed any opinion as to the text of the RDL Liturgicon (i.e. the inclusive language, and the memorialization of a truncated celebration) ? Just curious.
Dn. Robert
Fr. Deacon, See for yourself: http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgyNo inclusive language but the Liturgy itself is what has been the standard in the ACROD and the Byzantine Metropolia for sometime: 1 verse Antiphons, no Little Litanies, no Litanies of the Catechumens and the Faithful, no Litany of Supplication after the Great Entrance, i.e. the memorialized truncated celebration Fr. Deacon Lance Yes--if you watch the DL broadcast from Christ the Savior Cathedral, it's very much like a DL in a Pittsburgh Metropolia parish. Very similar to the DL in my former parish.
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#330815 - 08/25/09 07:59 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Job]
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Junior Member
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 24
Loc: Прия...
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I will "bite my tongue" regarding Bishop Pataki. But I included it in the quote to state that I agree, he was the driving force in this.
It is interesting, however, that after the promulgation, ACROD had Prof. Thompson at one of their clergy meetings, each priest received one of the "Teal Terror" books, and ACROD discussed utilizing it as well. I know that some of the "outrage" that has been expressed here for translations, was heard. It is true that Johnstown gladly received copies of the "Teal Terror" (as it is now called). They hoped they might use some of it. Then they reviewed the books and saw the music and translations. The idea was quietly dropped. Thompson tried to set up his own little musical kingdom. But everyone disliked his work but Bishop Pataki. Pataki won.
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#330816 - 08/25/09 09:03 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
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Cantor
Member
Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 1334
Loc: Connecticut
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Has Metropolitan Nicholas expressed any opinion as to the text of the RDL Liturgicon (i.e. the inclusive language, and the memorialization of a truncated celebration) ? Just curious.
Dn. Robert
Fr. Deacon, See for yourself: http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgyNo inclusive language but the Liturgy itself is what has been the standard in the ACROD and the Byzantine Metropolia for sometime: 1 verse Antiphons,.... Fr. Deacon Lance FYI... The official liturgy "blue" book...does have additional verses (w/music) that are available to be taken with the antiphons...
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#330820 - 08/25/09 09:49 AM
Re: The First Reform of the Liturgy
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1504
Loc: MD
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So, my daughters and wife ask, what is wrong with the word "mankind"? Although I routinely hear it on the TV, in popular movies, and in commercials that are surely trying to sell to both sexes, and of course, in classic English literature -- in church it is banned, and we must become enlightened that MANkind is "noninclusive" but hu MANkind is not. And so we would have (following this movement): God made Human in God's image In the image of God, God created...Human(?)... shehim(?) Female and male God created them. Some translators have forgotten what should be one of their commandments: Thou shalt not commit adulteration. But in fairness, that is not as bad as "God made Us-All in ..."
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