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#330645 - 08/23/09 04:10 AM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: pilgrimcantor]  
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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I'm a bit puzzled. Pilgrim cantor asks:
Quote
Will we make exceptions, for example, to the Pilgrimage (Otpust ) in Uniontown, where thousands of faithful attend the Liturgies and receive Communion ?


Don't see much of a reason for the use of anything but prosphora on such an occasion - using large Lambs and a sufficient number of Priests, Deacons, and lances to cut the Lamb(s) into enough Particles.

Quote
Or, perhaps, can we make an exception at the parish where the elderly pastor with arthritis, and no deacon, still has the ability to celebrate the Divine Liturgy for his parishioners ?


Well, I'm 67 years old and an arthritic and still use prosphora as prescribed on a daily basis - doesn't seem to aggravate the arthritis.

Fr. Serge

#330653 - 08/23/09 07:39 AM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]  
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Quote
Don't see much of a reason for the use of anything but prosphora on such an occasion - using large Lambs and a sufficient number of Priests, Deacons, and lances to cut the Lamb(s) into enough Particles.


Father,

I am curious as to why multiple Lambs are required. Looking through your estimable translation of the Ordo Celebrationis, Nos, 108ff, seems to indicate that only one Lamb is excised, and that while other commemorative particles are removed from the first and the other four prosphorae, it can be done with just one prosphora (No. 110). Nowhere is it indicated that particles must be taken only from the Lambs of each prosphora, particularly as all the commemorative particles may be taken from just one prosphora.

Can you explain the necessity of multiple Lambs, and how they are used if there is but one Diskos?

Also, in the case of large celebrations, is it necessary that all of the preparation be done at the Proskomide, or can the preparation of the Diskos be done at the Proskomide, and the cutting of the particles for communion be done at a different table?

Last edited by StuartK; 08/23/09 07:52 AM.
#330674 - 08/23/09 03:29 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: StuartK]  
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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The breaking or cutting of the Particles for Holy Communion is properly done at the Holy Table, after the Fraction.

Fr. Serge

#330675 - 08/23/09 04:05 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]  
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OK. Mildly confused. So, after the Priest intones, "Holy things for the holy", and while the people are singing, "One is Holy, One is Lord", he then breaks or cuts up the consecrated Prosphora for communion? What does he use? How long does this usually take?

I have to admit, I have never seen any priest or bishop do this, whether Catholic or Orthodox. In every case, the prosphora for communion have been cut at the Proskomide, after all the commemorative particles have been placed on the Diskos.

Ordo Celebrationis makes no reference to particles for communion during the Proskomide, though it must be admitted that in 1942, frequent communion was the exception not the rule in both Greek Catholic and Orthodox usage, so that the Lamb plus the particles of commemoration ought to have sufficed for all present, except at feast days.

Of the Fraction, Ordo Celebrationis (Nos. 138-139) notes that the priest elevates and then breaks the Lamb into four pieces, places the piece IC into the Chalice, then adds the Zeon, at which point the communion of the clergy begins. There's nothing there about breaking additional particles for communion--and, in any case, how did they get there, given that after the Proskomide, the remaining prosphorae have been divided for Antidoron. As far as I can tell, the only particles that go from the Proskomide to the Holy Table for consecration are those on the Diskoi carried in the Great Entrance.

Is there a lacuna in the Ordo, or has usage changed together with the rise in frequent communion? "Proper" usage aside, what is normal practice in the Orthodox Church today?

And a niggling reminder--why do we need multiple Lambs?

#330677 - 08/23/09 04:48 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: StuartK]  
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Fr David Straut Offline
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Originally Posted by StuartK
OK. Mildly confused. So, after the Priest intones, "Holy things for the holy", and while the people are singing, "One is Holy, One is Lord", he then breaks or cuts up the consecrated Prosphora for communion? What does he use? How long does this usually take?

I have to admit, I have never seen any priest or bishop do this, whether Catholic or Orthodox. In every case, the prosphora for communion have been cut at the Proskomide, after all the commemorative particles have been placed on the Diskos.

Ordo Celebrationis makes no reference to particles for communion during the Proskomide, though it must be admitted that in 1942, frequent communion was the exception not the rule in both Greek Catholic and Orthodox usage, so that the Lamb plus the particles of commemoration ought to have sufficed for all present, except at feast days.

Of the Fraction, Ordo Celebrationis (Nos. 138-139) notes that the priest elevates and then breaks the Lamb into four pieces, places the piece IC into the Chalice, then adds the Zeon, at which point the communion of the clergy begins. There's nothing there about breaking additional particles for communion--and, in any case, how did they get there, given that after the Proskomide, the remaining prosphorae have been divided for Antidoron. As far as I can tell, the only particles that go from the Proskomide to the Holy Table for consecration are those on the Diskoi carried in the Great Entrance.

Is there a lacuna in the Ordo, or has usage changed together with the rise in frequent communion? "Proper" usage aside, what is normal practice in the Orthodox Church today?

I'm not Fr Serge, but I can also answer this. Orthodox usage is as follows:

1. Elevation of the Lamb at "Holy Things are for the Holy"

2. The priest breaks the Lamb into its four parts: IC, XC, NI, KA and they are placed on the top, bottom, left, and right edges of the Diskos respectively.

3. The IC portion is placed in the Holy Chalice with the words "The fulness of the Holy Spirit."

4. The Zeon (Hot Water) is blessed by the priest and added to the Holy Chalice by the deacon accompanied by the customary words.

5. The XC portion of the Lamb is divided by the priest into as many portions as there are clergy concelebrating and placed on the bottom edge of the Diskos.

6. The Clergy commune according to the appointed order with the proper words.

7. The priest dives the NI and KA portions of the Lamb for the communicants. In my experience there are two ways to do this: Russians do this with a lance on a special plate, cutting the Lamb into little uniform squares, then adding them to the Chalice; Greeks tend to do this with their fingers over the Chalice, crumbling the Lamb into small portions that fall directly into the Chalice.

8. An incorrect practise is often seen (though never among Russians smile ) of placing all the rest of the commemorative particles (Theotokos, Ranks of Saints, Living, and Departed) into the Holy Chalice at this point, thus inevitably resulting in communicants receiving these particles during Holy Communion rather than those of the Lamb only. This practise appears no where in the liturgical books. (The time appointed to add these particles to the Chalice is after the Communion of the Laity.) This practice arises from the misplaced desire to save time after Communion and/or to have more particles with which to commune the Faithful. It is based on an Eastern theory that ordinary bread is consecrated through being soaked in the Blood of Christ.

9. The Communion of the Laity.

I see no difficulty in following this traditional order of Holy Communion and am puzzled why anyone would introduce the practise of precut particles to Eastern Liturgical practise. Greek Catholics should reject these innovations and return to authentic Orthodox practise as regards the Proskomedia, the Lamb, the Communion of the Clergy and the Laity.

As far as multiple Lambs are concerned, they are never desirable. One simply needs to bake a large enough Lamb for the communicants one expects at a given Liturgy.

Fr David Straut

#330679 - 08/23/09 05:20 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Fr David Straut]  
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Father, bless! Thanks for this explanation.

I wanted to ask: when is the usual time the bread (the antidoron) is sliced up to be distributed after Liturgy?

Last edited by DTBrown; 08/23/09 05:21 PM.
#330681 - 08/23/09 05:53 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Fr David Straut]  
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The 65 Liturgicon states:

"... The other two particles: NI and KA break into as many small particles as you foresee will be be necessary for those who will receive."(page 40)

"It is to be noted that if htere are any who wish to partake of the holy mysteries, the priest breaks the two particles, NI and KA, into smaller particles and the deacon (with a sponge) puts these and the other particles together with the consecrated lamb into the holy chalice."(page 43)

The Ordo on Page 55 uses the same illustration as the 65 Liturgicon which simply notes: Give Communion to the people with these two particles.



My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
#330682 - 08/23/09 05:57 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: DTBrown]  
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Fascinating. As a mercenary altar boy, I have served for Ukrainian, Greek, Antiochian and OCA priests and bishops, as well as for Ruthenian, Melkite and Romanian priests and bishops--and I have never actually seen Proskomide done in this manner, let alone the exclusive use of Lambs for the communion particles.

Now, just how big a Lamb would you need if, say, your average Sunday communion was about 100-150 people.

Also, how do Russians avoid multiple Lambs if each of the five prosphorae has one?

#330683 - 08/23/09 06:00 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: DTBrown]  
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Fr David Straut Offline
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Originally Posted by DTBrown
Father, bless! Thanks for this explanation.

I wanted to ask: when is the usual time the bread (the antidoron) is sliced up to be distributed after Liturgy?

May the Lord bless you!

There is no appointed time for this. It can be done any time after the last prosphoron is used at the Proskomedia. Ideally, this sort of action should be done when there are not important liturgical actions going on that should be paid attention to by all, including the servers. If it can be done before the actual Liturgy begins, so much the better. Otherwise, the Antiphons would be a good choice of time. If this is impossible, perhaps during litanies. Times it should not be done: the Readings from the Epistle and Gospel, the homily, the Anaphora, the Communion of the Clergy or Laity.

Fr David Straut

#330684 - 08/23/09 06:08 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Fr David Straut]  
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I'd like to go back a bit , if I may, with some questions .

Fr David you said
Quote
An incorrect practise is often seen (though never among Russians ) of placing all the rest of the commemorative particles (Theotokos, Ranks of Saints, Living, and Departed) into the Holy Chalice at this point, thus inevitably resulting in communicants receiving these particles during Holy Communion rather than those of the Lamb only. This practise appears no where in the liturgical books. (The time appointed to add these particles to the Chalice is after the Communion of the Laity.) This practice arises from the misplaced desire to save time after Communion and/or to have more particles with which to commune the Faithful. It is based on an Eastern theory that ordinary bread is consecrated through being soaked in the Blood of Christ.


The part in bold is puzzling me - forgive my ignorance but if these particles are added to the Chalice after the Communion of Laity - what is the reason for this ?

Also DTBrown asked about the cutting of bread for Antidoron - I'd like to ask if that is also the same for the bread that is used for zapivka ?

#330685 - 08/23/09 06:21 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: StuartK]  
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Deacon John Montalvo Offline
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Fascinating. As a mercenary altar boy, I have served for Ukrainian, Greek, Antiochian and OCA priests and bishops, as well as for Ruthenian, Melkite and Romanian priests and bishops--and I have never actually seen Proskomide done in this manner, let alone the exclusive use of Lambs for the communion particles.

Now, just how big a Lamb would you need if, say, your average Sunday communion was about 100-150 people.

Also, how do Russians avoid multiple Lambs if each of the five prosphorae has one?


Stuart-

I received a bread pan from our rector as gift last year. It provides a large prosfora to accommodate communion for 150 people. The bread pan came from: The Gifted Pan

#330687 - 08/23/09 06:36 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Our Lady's slave]  
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Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
I'd like to go back a bit , if I may, with some questions .

Fr David you said
Quote
An incorrect practise is often seen (though never among Russians ) of placing all the rest of the commemorative particles (Theotokos, Ranks of Saints, Living, and Departed) into the Holy Chalice at this point, thus inevitably resulting in communicants receiving these particles during Holy Communion rather than those of the Lamb only. This practise appears no where in the liturgical books. (The time appointed to add these particles to the Chalice is after the Communion of the Laity.) This practice arises from the misplaced desire to save time after Communion and/or to have more particles with which to commune the Faithful. It is based on an Eastern theory that ordinary bread is consecrated through being soaked in the Blood of Christ.


The part in bold is puzzling me - forgive my ignorance but if these particles are added to the Chalice after the Communion of Laity - what is the reason for this ?

Also DTBrown asked about the cutting of bread for Antidoron - I'd like to ask if that is also the same for the bread that is used for zapivka ?

The particles of representing the Mother of God and the Saints, arranged on either side of the Lamb are not consecrated. They remain bread. They need to be consumed, and the best way to do this by consuming them in the Chalice at the end of the Liturgy. There is also symbolism associated with the liturgical actions of placing them in the Chalice. These actions make sense of the unique Byzantine usage of placing bread on the paten which is not intended to be consecrated as the Body of Christ.

My own practise is to place the particle of representing the Mother of God into the Chalice after Communion saying the following Paschal hymn addressed to the Theotokos:

"Shine, shine, O new Jerusalem, for the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee; dance now and be glad, O Zion; and do thou exult, O pure Theotokos, in the arising of Him Whom thou didst bear."

I place the nine particles representing the ranks of the Saints into the Chalice saying this hymn:

"O Christ, Thou great and most sacred Pascha! O Wisdom, Word and power of God! Grant us to partake of Thee more fully in the unwaning day of Thy kingdom."

The particles representing the Living and the Departed are placed in the Chalice by all priests with the following prayer:

"By thy precious Blood, O Lord, wash away the sins of those here commemorated, through the intercessions of Thy saints."

As for your second question: the bread for the Communicants taken with the Zapivka is cut up with the rest of the antidoron. Many Russians make a distinction between the two types of bread. The bread for the communicants is taken from the same prosphoron that the Lamb is taken from. The rest of the antidoron is taken from the other prosphora. I have not seen this distinction among the Greeks.

Fr David Straut

#330690 - 08/23/09 06:44 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: DTBrown]  
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Originally Posted by DTBrown
Thanks, Stuart, for the explanation of your parish's practice.

I've visited various Orthodox liturgical celebrations over the years (some in "postage stamp" size locations) and never once have I seen them resort to pre-cut pieces.

My personal thought is it's all in how one views things. If a celebrant views this as important, then the celebrant will find a way to follow the traditional usage of prosphora and avoid the use of pre-cut pieces.

Having said that, I'm beginning to doubt that the Ruthenian practice of pre-cut pieces will ever die out until our Bishops ban it.


Have you been to that little (I think Russian) parish between Grants Pass and Medford? Talk about a small little chapel

#330691 - 08/23/09 06:54 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: StuartK]  
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Also, how do Russians avoid multiple Lambs if each of the five prosphorae has one?

One can use five identical prosphora with Lambs on them, just picking one for the Lamb itself. The other particles are taken from the other four prosphora without disturbing the Lamb imprint on top. Some prophora bakers have special imprints for the other four prophora and do not imprint a Lamb on them, but special seals representing the Theotokos, the Nine Ranks of Saints, the Living, and the Departed. I've never used such seals, but have seen pictures of them.

Fr David Straut

#330692 - 08/23/09 06:58 PM Re: Byzantine Catholics Returning to Prosphora Traditions? [Re: Fr David Straut]  
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There is a lot of information on this website including baking videos:

http://www.prosphora.org/

Enjoy!

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