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This is from another thread where further discussion on this calendar issue was correctly deemed off-topic. I pick it up here because I would better like to understand the indicated concern.

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Return to the Orthodox Calendar and Traditions.

I see that the calendar has the same talismanic fascination for Orthodox traditionalists that Latin does for Roman traditionalists. If the OCA has the kind of problems indicated, it will take more than moving Nativity to 7 January to fix them.
Dear Stuart,

It is precisely those who reduce the Calendar question to the issue of celebrating Christmas on "7 January" who misunderstand the whole issue of the Calendar. The Calendar is an integrated whole of 365/6 days and how they interact with the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon that is the issue. The liturgical calendar is the way that we live our life in Christ in union with his body. The Nativity of Christ is not, and never has been, celebrated on the 7th of January. Those who think so, even if they call themselves "Old Calendarists" are far from the Orthodox Tradition. The fact that we celebrate the Dormition of the Theotokos of the Most-Holy Mother of God tomorrow is just as important as the fact that we observe 25 December when you are observing the Synaxis of St John the Baptist.

Fr David Straut


Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
I need to restrain myself when confronted with one of my pet peeves: the Christmas/January 7th thing.


What is this calendar doing regarding the typicon and Paschal cycle that is so unique, that isn't done by that other calendar? Is it really to be equated with "the Orthodox Tradition"?

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Well, I had responded privately to Father David, but I might as well put it out here:

I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith. It's just that, to me, it doesn't matter on what day you begin the cycle, as long as you live the cycle. I don't care whether we all use the Julian or Gregorian calendars (as I have said elsewhere, though I think the Fathers would have chosen whichever was more closely aligned with the seasons), as long as we are all on one. I would prefer that, in the interests of unity, the Greek Catholics all use the Julian Paschalion--we can hash out synchronization with the Latins when it becomes an issue.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith.

This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability. There is no inherent rhythm in one calendar that allows it to dispose its users to holiness. Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.

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What are the arguments for keeping Julian calendar, even though the strong, traditional link of the feasts with seasons (Easter with spring, blessing of first land products for Dormition etc.) is going to be lost?

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This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability.

Pretty much what I said. Either calendar will do, but pick just one. Since I'm indifferent, I don't mind going Julian.

Quote
Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.

If it makes them happy, and it costs us nothing, then we should accommodate them. Little gestures can go a long way.

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Originally Posted by PeterPeter
What are the arguments for keeping Julian calendar, even though the strong, traditional link of the feasts with seasons (Easter with spring, blessing of first land products for Dormition etc.) is going to be lost?


Theological arguments, I mean.

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Originally Posted by PeterPeter
Originally Posted by PeterPeter
What are the arguments for keeping Julian calendar, even though the strong, traditional link of the feasts with seasons (Easter with spring, blessing of first land products for Dormition etc.) is going to be lost?


Theological arguments, I mean.
Good question. Good point.

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We get to celebrate Pascha on Fourth of July with fireworks?

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Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability.

Pretty much what I said. Either calendar will do, but pick just one.
For this one particular ability, yes. There are, however, other abilities to consider. For the fuller context:
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by StuartK
I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith.

This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability. There is no inherent rhythm in one calendar that allows it to dispose its users to holiness.
My sense is that the Julian calendar is considered by its dedicated users to have this true rhythm and perfect harmony with the typicon whereas the Gregorian is considered to be inherently deficient in this regard. Of course, the Gregorian is as compatible with the Typicon and the Paschal Cycle as the Julian.

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.

If it makes them happy, and it costs us nothing, then we should accommodate them.
But there is a cost: the drift; the non-adherence to the directive of Nicaea. Of course, one may consider that cost cheap or dear.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
We get to celebrate Pascha on Fourth of July with fireworks?

Like this?


smile

Dave

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Glorious! I knew Bishop Petros almost 50 years ago and last saw him at Jordanville about 30 years ago - delighted to see and hear that he is still going strong.

The crowds that come to Saint Markella for the major feasts are unbelievable - and the streets are impassable.

Happy Dormition, everyone!

Fr. Serge

Last edited by Fr Serge Keleher; 08/28/09 11:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
Happy Dormition, everyone!

Fr. Serge

And for those now celebrating especially, and therefore in the know, a repeated request for information:

Originally Posted by ajk
What is this calendar doing regarding the typicon and Paschal cycle that is so unique, that isn't done by that other calendar? Is it really to be equated with "the Orthodox Tradition"?

and

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by StuartK
I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith.

This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability. There is no inherent rhythm in one calendar that allows it to dispose its users to holiness. Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.

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Dear AJK,

No one is biting. Take the hint and let this rest.

Those of us who are happy on the traditional Church Calendar are not going to be converted to worship at the altar of the goddess of Astronomical Accuracy. Give it up, We are tired of the arguments.

My words in another thread seem to have been the springboard for this thread. What I meant by them is simply this:

1. The reduction of the Calendar issue to what date we celebrate Christmas is absurd. The calendar involves 365/6 days with interactions between the Menologion Cycle, the Weekly Commemorations, the Paschal Cycle, and the Tonal Cycle. Christmas is only a microscopic part of all that.

2. No one celebrates Christmas on 7 January. All of us, except the Armenians, celebrate Christmas on 25 December. I follow the Julian Calendar in my spiritual and liturgical life. The Christmas services are in the December Menaion, not the January Menaion. Old Calendar Christmas is not January 7th, it is December 25th. You, and the secular society around us, may be observing January 7th on that day, but to me it is December 25th.

That is what I meant by my original statements. I'm not interested in a debate, nor will I take the bait.

Sorry.

Fr David Straut

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I agree with the good father, this topic needs to be given up. This is just another re-hash of not one but a multitude of threads on the same topic, and is becoming just a soap box for some. I am sure there can be other worthwhile things to be discussed here such as "how many angels can sit upon the head of a pin"
[Linked Image]

Maybe one of the moderators can just shoot this thread and put it out of its misery.

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Touchy.

Fr. David, since you addressed me. My questions and the topic were specific and did not deal with being "converted to worship at the altar of the goddess of Astronomical Accuracy." The questions are a legitimate inquiry in good faith, and they remain. You are wrong to impute to me baiting or whatever you're alleging as my motive; I am pursuing a topic you raised. There is nothing for me to be sorry about; you should consider being sorry for the tone and accusations in your reply. Better, in my opinion, to just take responsibility for what one writes. Thank you for the explanations you provided even though they did not address the points I raised.

Squirrel:

Other threads on the calendar have gone on for quite some time and they have started with a bias towards the Julian calendar. Yet now this thread must cease when an inquiry is made about an issue that is put forth as the unique aspect of the Julian calendar. You are entitled to express your masked opinion, but it has zero information content regarding the thread's topic. I've asked for information and explanations from those in general, not anyone directly or specifically, who have experience in the matter. Who else should I expect to provide an explanation, and the most informed explanation, than those with actual experience?

There is no "re-hashing" here. I'd say the approach and focus of this thread is very different from the others. So perhaps you are not so well informed about the content of the other threads and, therefore, are here just beating your own dead horse.

The title of the thread is essentially Fr. David's words from a thread where an Administrator considered it off topic and suggested that, if continued, it be done as a new thread. That's what I did, continue it here, because I could not respond where it was originally posted. In all the calendar threads where I have been a participant I did not initiate the topic. This topic, too, was raised by another:

Originally Posted by Fr. David Straut
The Calendar is an integrated whole of 365/6 days and how they interact with the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon that is the issue.

He is correct; and that is the issue of this thread.

The thread's subject:

Quote
The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon




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