The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Lucy4light, Elijah Maria, Fr. Steven ROCOR, vlodko62, CelticOrthodox
5447 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 registered members (Fr. Al, JLF, 1 invisible), 48 guests, and 101 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Portable Icon Screen
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,422
Posts410,174
Members5,447
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
#330969 - 08/27/09 06:20 PM The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
ajk Offline
Member
ajk  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
MD
This is from another thread where further discussion on this calendar issue was correctly deemed off-topic. I pick it up here because I would better like to understand the indicated concern.

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Return to the Orthodox Calendar and Traditions.


I see that the calendar has the same talismanic fascination for Orthodox traditionalists that Latin does for Roman traditionalists. If the OCA has the kind of problems indicated, it will take more than moving Nativity to 7 January to fix them.

Dear Stuart,

It is precisely those who reduce the Calendar question to the issue of celebrating Christmas on "7 January" who misunderstand the whole issue of the Calendar. The Calendar is an integrated whole of 365/6 days and how they interact with the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon that is the issue. The liturgical calendar is the way that we live our life in Christ in union with his body. The Nativity of Christ is not, and never has been, celebrated on the 7th of January. Those who think so, even if they call themselves "Old Calendarists" are far from the Orthodox Tradition. The fact that we celebrate the Dormition of the Theotokos of the Most-Holy Mother of God tomorrow is just as important as the fact that we observe 25 December when you are observing the Synaxis of St John the Baptist.

Fr David Straut



Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
I need to restrain myself when confronted with one of my pet peeves: the Christmas/January 7th thing.



What is this calendar doing regarding the typicon and Paschal cycle that is so unique, that isn't done by that other calendar? Is it really to be equated with "the Orthodox Tradition"?

#330974 - 08/27/09 08:51 PM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon [Re: ajk]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
StuartK Offline
Member
StuartK  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
Well, I had responded privately to Father David, but I might as well put it out here:

I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith. It's just that, to me, it doesn't matter on what day you begin the cycle, as long as you live the cycle. I don't care whether we all use the Julian or Gregorian calendars (as I have said elsewhere, though I think the Fathers would have chosen whichever was more closely aligned with the seasons), as long as we are all on one. I would prefer that, in the interests of unity, the Greek Catholics all use the Julian Paschalion--we can hash out synchronization with the Latins when it becomes an issue.

#330982 - 08/27/09 10:19 PM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon [Re: StuartK]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
ajk Offline
Member
ajk  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
MD
Originally Posted by StuartK
I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith.


This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability. There is no inherent rhythm in one calendar that allows it to dispose its users to holiness. Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.

#331000 - 08/28/09 04:19 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon [Re: ajk]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 275
PeterPeter Offline
Member
PeterPeter  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 275
PL
What are the arguments for keeping Julian calendar, even though the strong, traditional link of the feasts with seasons (Easter with spring, blessing of first land products for Dormition etc.) is going to be lost?

#331001 - 08/28/09 04:38 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: PeterPeter]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
StuartK Offline
Member
StuartK  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
Quote
This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability.


Pretty much what I said. Either calendar will do, but pick just one. Since I'm indifferent, I don't mind going Julian.

Quote
Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.


If it makes them happy, and it costs us nothing, then we should accommodate them. Little gestures can go a long way.

#331002 - 08/28/09 04:43 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: PeterPeter]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 275
PeterPeter Offline
Member
PeterPeter  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 275
PL
Originally Posted by PeterPeter
What are the arguments for keeping Julian calendar, even though the strong, traditional link of the feasts with seasons (Easter with spring, blessing of first land products for Dormition etc.) is going to be lost?


Theological arguments, I mean.

#331010 - 08/28/09 10:56 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: PeterPeter]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
ajk Offline
Member
ajk  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
MD
Originally Posted by PeterPeter
Originally Posted by PeterPeter
What are the arguments for keeping Julian calendar, even though the strong, traditional link of the feasts with seasons (Easter with spring, blessing of first land products for Dormition etc.) is going to be lost?


Theological arguments, I mean.
Good question. Good point.

#331012 - 08/28/09 11:38 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: ajk]  
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
StuartK Offline
Member
StuartK  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Falls Church, VA
We get to celebrate Pascha on Fourth of July with fireworks?

#331013 - 08/28/09 11:58 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: StuartK]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
ajk Offline
Member
ajk  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
MD
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability.


Pretty much what I said. Either calendar will do, but pick just one.
For this one particular ability, yes. There are, however, other abilities to consider. For the fuller context:
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by StuartK
I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith.


This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability. There is no inherent rhythm in one calendar that allows it to dispose its users to holiness.
My sense is that the Julian calendar is considered by its dedicated users to have this true rhythm and perfect harmony with the typicon whereas the Gregorian is considered to be inherently deficient in this regard. Of course, the Gregorian is as compatible with the Typicon and the Paschal Cycle as the Julian.

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.


If it makes them happy, and it costs us nothing, then we should accommodate them.
But there is a cost: the drift; the non-adherence to the directive of Nicaea. Of course, one may consider that cost cheap or dear.

#331014 - 08/28/09 12:43 PM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: StuartK]  
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Chtec Offline
Member
Chtec  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,010
Hermitage, PA
Originally Posted by StuartK
We get to celebrate Pascha on Fourth of July with fireworks?


Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGj8uliOBVg

smile

Dave

#331022 - 08/28/09 06:12 PM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: Chtec]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member
Fr Serge Keleher  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Dublin
Glorious! I knew Bishop Petros almost 50 years ago and last saw him at Jordanville about 30 years ago - delighted to see and hear that he is still going strong.

The crowds that come to Saint Markella for the major feasts are unbelievable - and the streets are impassable.

Happy Dormition, everyone!

Fr. Serge

Last edited by Fr Serge Keleher; 08/28/09 06:12 PM.
#331081 - 08/29/09 10:35 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
ajk Offline
Member
ajk  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
MD
Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
Happy Dormition, everyone!

Fr. Serge


And for those now celebrating especially, and therefore in the know, a repeated request for information:

Originally Posted by ajk
What is this calendar doing regarding the typicon and Paschal cycle that is so unique, that isn't done by that other calendar? Is it really to be equated with "the Orthodox Tradition"?


and

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by StuartK
I understand the integration of the calendar into the fullness of our lives in faith.


This is the aspect that I don't see. Both calendars, I contend, have this ability. There is no inherent rhythm in one calendar that allows it to dispose its users to holiness. Nor is there an innate sense, even as I asked about above, an innate Orthodox sense, that resonates with one calendar and not the other.


#331082 - 08/29/09 10:56 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: ajk]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 787
Fr David Straut Offline
Member
Fr David Straut  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 787
New Jersey
Dear AJK,

No one is biting. Take the hint and let this rest.

Those of us who are happy on the traditional Church Calendar are not going to be converted to worship at the altar of the goddess of Astronomical Accuracy. Give it up, We are tired of the arguments.

My words in another thread seem to have been the springboard for this thread. What I meant by them is simply this:

1. The reduction of the Calendar issue to what date we celebrate Christmas is absurd. The calendar involves 365/6 days with interactions between the Menologion Cycle, the Weekly Commemorations, the Paschal Cycle, and the Tonal Cycle. Christmas is only a microscopic part of all that.

2. No one celebrates Christmas on 7 January. All of us, except the Armenians, celebrate Christmas on 25 December. I follow the Julian Calendar in my spiritual and liturgical life. The Christmas services are in the December Menaion, not the January Menaion. Old Calendar Christmas is not January 7th, it is December 25th. You, and the secular society around us, may be observing January 7th on that day, but to me it is December 25th.

That is what I meant by my original statements. I'm not interested in a debate, nor will I take the bait.

Sorry.

Fr David Straut

#331087 - 08/29/09 11:46 AM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: Fr David Straut]  
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250
Secret Squirrel Offline
Byzantine Secret Service
Secret Squirrel  Offline
Byzantine Secret Service
Member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 250
The Oak Tree
I agree with the good father, this topic needs to be given up. This is just another re-hash of not one but a multitude of threads on the same topic, and is becoming just a soap box for some. I am sure there can be other worthwhile things to be discussed here such as "how many angels can sit upon the head of a pin"
[Linked Image]

Maybe one of the moderators can just shoot this thread and put it out of its misery.

#331101 - 08/29/09 03:17 PM Re: The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typik [Re: Secret Squirrel]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
ajk Offline
Member
ajk  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,858
MD
Touchy.

Fr. David, since you addressed me. My questions and the topic were specific and did not deal with being "converted to worship at the altar of the goddess of Astronomical Accuracy." The questions are a legitimate inquiry in good faith, and they remain. You are wrong to impute to me baiting or whatever you're alleging as my motive; I am pursuing a topic you raised. There is nothing for me to be sorry about; you should consider being sorry for the tone and accusations in your reply. Better, in my opinion, to just take responsibility for what one writes. Thank you for the explanations you provided even though they did not address the points I raised.

Squirrel:

Other threads on the calendar have gone on for quite some time and they have started with a bias towards the Julian calendar. Yet now this thread must cease when an inquiry is made about an issue that is put forth as the unique aspect of the Julian calendar. You are entitled to express your masked opinion, but it has zero information content regarding the thread's topic. I've asked for information and explanations from those in general, not anyone directly or specifically, who have experience in the matter. Who else should I expect to provide an explanation, and the most informed explanation, than those with actual experience?

There is no "re-hashing" here. I'd say the approach and focus of this thread is very different from the others. So perhaps you are not so well informed about the content of the other threads and, therefore, are here just beating your own dead horse.

The title of the thread is essentially Fr. David's words from a thread where an Administrator considered it off topic and suggested that, if continued, it be done as a new thread. That's what I did, continue it here, because I could not respond where it was originally posted. In all the calendar threads where I have been a participant I did not initiate the topic. This topic, too, was raised by another:

Originally Posted by Fr. David Straut
The Calendar is an integrated whole of 365/6 days and how they interact with the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon that is the issue.


He is correct; and that is the issue of this thread.

The thread's subject:

Quote
The liturgical calendars and the Paschal Cycle with the Typikon





Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2017. All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.020s Queries: 15 (0.008s) Memory: 1.7966 MB (Peak: 2.0252 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-11-18 13:56:45 UTC