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I do understand what you are saying about "standard" American English. However, I don't think, no matter what the dictionary may say, people today perceive "man/men" as being the best word to use in English for all humanity. I see that in my sons schools, school books, even books that they read for pleasure. And it's not necessarily lowering the level of our language. I can equally say that I find "for us men" as "potentially exclusive" as you find "for us" potentially exclusive. We're just going in circles now and I think it best for us (men) to agree to disagree. There is more at stake here than a simple disagreement. There is integrity: the integrity of the language (of the Creed), and the integrity of purpose. The language of the Creed is that "for us men...He became Man." If "men" is dropped the men-Man connection is broken, disappears. Worse though is that if "men" is dropped because it is cast as "non-inclusive", and "Man" is left as ok, the implication is that the Creed is saying that Jesus became a Man = male of the human race. But that is NOT what the Creed is saying here, rather, it is conveying by the word Man the exact meaning that was just denied its plural form, "as being the best word to use in English for all humanity." That this is so one only has to listen to Fr. Pipta trying to explain this on the RDL Catechetical DVD. A translation that drops men but keeps Man is convoluted dishonesty. It is convoluted because if it is the case as stated that "I don't think, no matter what the dictionary may say, people today perceive "man/men" as being the best word to use in English for all humanity" then why only is the word men affected, and not man. The explanation, as I noted, is convoluted. Leaving only the word Man, unexplained and giving the impression that man means a male, is dishonest because it allows the English of the Creed to appear to say something different from the original. The lack of integrity of purpose is that there is an agenda, a manipulation taking place that wants to recast the language to its own purpose. It is being taught in schools: not dictionary-English, standard-English, good-English; not naturally-evolving-English, but agenda-driven-English. It is a shame to see it entering our Church, and the pretext for doing so is a sham. And when kids actually see what would be artificially denied the use of the word "men" -- an inclusive use -- they know it: [ Linked Image] It's just a real shame that it's proper usage is now to be argued based on comic books rather than classrooms and text books. And speaking of school, what are female freshmen now called?
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Greek version of the Nicene Creed
Πιστεύω είς ενα Θεόν, Πατέρα, παντοκράτορα, ποιητήν ουρανού καί γής, ορατών τε πάντων καί αοράτων.
Καί είς ενα Κύριον, Ίησούν Χριστόν, τόν Υιόν του Θεού τόν μονογενή, τόν εκ του Πατρός γεννηθέντα πρό πάντων τών αιώνων. Φώς εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεού αληθινού γεννηθέντα, ού ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τώ Πατρί, δι’ ού τά πάντα εγένετο. Τόν δι’ ημάς τούς ανθρώπους καί διά τήν ημετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα εκ τών ουρανών καί σαρκωθέντα εκ Πνεύματος ‘Αγίου καί Μαρίας τής Παρθένου καί ενανθρωπήσαντα. Σταυρωθέντα τε υπέρ ημών επί Ποντίου Πιλάτου καί παθόντα καί ταφέντα.
Καί αναστάντα τή τρίτη ημέρα κατά τάς Γραφάς.
Καί ανελθόντα είς τούς ουρανούς καί καθεζόμενον εκ δεξιών τού Πατρός.
Καί πάλιν ερχόμενον μετά δόξης κρίναι ζώντας καί νεκρούς, ού τής βασιλείας ουκ εσται τέλος.
Καί είς τό Πνεύμα τό ¨Αγιον, τό Κύριον, τό ζωοποιόν, τό εκ τού Πατρός εκπορευόμενον, τό σύν Πατρί καί Υιώ συμπροσκυνούμενον καί συνδοξαζόμενον, τό λαλήσαν διά τών Προφητών.
Είς μίαν, αγίαν, καθολικήν καί αποστολικήν Έκκλησίαν. ‘Ομολογώ εν βάπτισμα είς άφεσιν αμαρτιών. Προσδοκώ ανάστασιν νεκρών. Καί ζωήν τού μέλλοντος αιώνος.
Άμήν.
Interpretation of the Greek text
The original creed was written in Greek, the language of the eastern Mediterranean where both councils were seated.
Most modern scholarly opinion believes that μονογενή means "only" or "unique" coming from μονο - "mono" meaning "only" and γενή coming from γενος "genus" meaning kind - "only one of its kind", thus the translation "only Son" in the above modern translation of the creed. Older English translations as well as the Latin contain "only-begotten", "unigenitum" on the belief that γενή comes from the word for γενναω "born". On the other hand Old Latin manuscripts of the New Testament translate μονογενή as "unicus", "unique". No doubt debate will continue as to the author's intentions both in the New Testament, as well as the separate issue of the intended meaning in the creeds.
The Greek word ὁμοουσιον indicates in orthodox theology that The Father and the Son are "of the same substance" or "of the same essence" because the Son is begotten of the Father’s own being (εκ της ουσιας του πατρος)
Latin version of the Nicene Creed
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.
Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis.
Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre (Filioque) procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen. [ thenazareneway.com] There is a page we all might read dealing with this whole controversary. BOB
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Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
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And speaking of school, what are female freshmen now called? Some possibilities: (1.) Fresh ( a la "Chair" of the Philosophy Dept.) (2.) Freshgirls (3.) Freshwomen (4.) Freshladies (5.) Freshpersons (6.) Freshkind (7.) "Us All" 
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And speaking of school, what are female freshmen now called? Real women aren't afraid of real English. We call them freshmen. Only neutered men do such dumb things like changing the language. It's embarrassing to find that my church has put the politics of liberal feminism above orthodox teaching. Even to the point of neutering the Creed. Shame on them!
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The problem is that Greek has two words for "man": ἀνήρ ("male person") and ἄνθρωπος ("human being"). It is the second word that is used in the Creed.
Many languages, such as German and Latin, make the same distinction. German has Mann and Mensch; Latin has vir and homo. Therefore, translating this part of the Creed into German or Latin is not difficult: you simply choose the word which means human being, i.e. Mensch or homo.
English, however, does not make this distinction. The word man can mean both "male person" and "human being." The meaning in each case can only be discerned from the context.
It is thus impossible to make a completely accurate, word-for-word translation of the Creed from Greek into English. One can only hope to make a translation which is faithful to the original meaning. Personally I think the phrase for us men should be kept, but it does need to be explained through catechesis.
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It is thus impossible to make a completely accurate, word-for-word translation of the Creed from Greek into English. Of course it is, because the word "man" in English has multiple meanings. Context determines which one applies. Personally I think the phrase for us men should be kept, but it does need to be explained through catechesis. No, it doesn't, because only over-educated idiots (like professors of semiotics) and those who fall under their influence don't know what it means.
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The problem is that Greek has two words for "man": ἀνήρ ("male person") and ἄνθρωπος ("human being"). It is the second word that is used in the Creed. As we've discussed, ἄνθρωπος is found in scripture with an exclusively male meaning too; it is not entirely unambiguous. English, however, does not make this distinction. The word man can mean both "male person" and "human being." Yes, but even with the feminist onslaught to manipulate and change the language, one can look currently, online and still find as the primary definitions: man (man)
noun pl. men (men)
1. a human being; person; specif.,
1. a hominid (Homo sapiens) having an opposable thumb, the ability to make and use specialized tools, articulate speech, and a highly developed brain with the faculty of abstract thought: the only living hominid
2. any extinct hominid, as Neanderthal man
2. the human race; mankind: used without the or a [ yourdictionary.com] The meaning in each case can only be discerned from the context. That is one of the problems with dropping men from the Creed in English: it changes the context for the phrase He became Man. That is, the RDL translation says for us...He became Man as opposed to for us men...He became Man. In the RDL rendering the men-Man connection is lost. It is thus impossible to make a completely accurate, word-for-word translation of the Creed from Greek into English. Or translations from any language to any language. In a sense, all translations lie, and yet we must translate, and do our best.
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A slang answer to the question as to what a female freshman might be called is "frosh". That has been in use since at least the nineteen-fifties, and is perhaps even earlier. "Frosh" is not gender-determined (a male or a female freshman is equally a frosh in circles where "frosh" is in use). I'm not necessarily advocating this, but it's at least more authentic than "fresher", which has been spreading for the past few years. "Frosh", incidentally, does not have differing forms for singular and plural.
Fr Serge (who was a frosh himself many years ago!)
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Jessup B.C. Deacon Member
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Forgot about that word. But, it was always considered to be a type of slang. However, despite that, it is preferable to any of the "inclusive" usages. BTW, my daughter is in her first year at Seton Hall University. She has no problem with the term "freshman". This only seems to be an affront to certain types of people.
Dn. Robert
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Well, UVA is unique in not using the designations "frehsman, sophomores, juniors and seniors" (it never has). Instead, students are designated first year, second year, third year and fourth year.
Of course, the military academies have their own term. West Point first years are Plebes.
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I'm astounded by the need to continue to wrestle with translations of the Creed and other liturgical prayers. There have been translations already done for longer than I've been around but it seems that there is a determined bent to re-invent the wheel in this area. We've had Greek translations, Latin translations, and translations from other languages--I've found an Armenian one on the web. So what's the big deal and what's the point? (Except that the language engineers are trying to recast the language to conform to the passing fad of radical feminism.) It seems to me that before one ought to try to recast the laguage received form one's teachers in the Faith, one ought to dig deeply into the nuances and layers of meaning one receives, internalize them as much as possible, and only then try to see if it is possible to modernize the language. Of course this presupposes that an intensive catechesis is part of this internalization. But it also seems that the people who are so bent on recasting the language are the very people who have not done this. In other words, it's often people who themselves have lost their faith who thrash about trying to rediscover it in the constant recasting of the way in which that very faith is expressed. Here's the way English takes the Creed from Armenian (from the Eastern diocese website): Creed of the Armenian Church
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father.
God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten and not made; of the same nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible;
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, took body, became man, was born perfectly of the holy Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered and was crucified and was buried and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.
He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of His kingdom there is no end.
We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect; who spoke through the Law and through the Prophets and through the Gospels;
Who came down upon the Jordan, preached through the apostles and dwelled in the saints.
We believe also in only one catholic and apostolic holy Church;
In one baptism with repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins;
In the resurrection of the dead, in the everlasting judgment of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal. I found this quote from the same website in the explanation of the Nicene Creed and the way the Armenian Church views it. In the articles of the Nicene Creed there is no room for diversity of opinion. BOB
Last edited by theophan; 09/08/09 11:30 PM. Reason: additional quote
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So the bishops are forcing a version of the creed that is almost but not quite heretical? Why?
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