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Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33182 04/04/05 03:59 AM
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Photius Offline
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Originally posted by Pavloosh:
"The good Holy Spirit was at "work" when +Pope John Paul II extended his hand and his heart to the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church."

I was in Russia during part of the time when this happened. My recollection is that the Patriarch originally accepted the Pope of Rome's request to be invited to Russia, but then the pope demanded that he be treated as a senior bishop to the patriarch, whereupon the pope's visa was revoked. I see this as just. There is a schism in the Russian Church (presently being resolved) and the Patriarchate of Moscow is by far more liberal faction in relations with Rome. The fact that Moscow, at the moment, even recognizes the sacraments of the Roman Church is liberal and is a cause of scandal to many Orthodox, including much of the Greek Church, especially Mount Athos, and the Church of Jerusalem, as well as the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.

So, Patriarch Alexis II used up a lot of good will in the Orthodox Church to accommodate John Paul II, and John Paul II pushed his luck.

"... Sometimes I think there are two forms of Christianity - that taught by Jesus Christ Himself and that taught by the Moscow Patriarchate. ..."

Of all the Orthodox bashing I've seen here (which I expect of course; there's at least as much RC bashing in Orthodox venues), that quote is the distilled essence of the attitude of the Latin Church which will never succeed in uniting with Orthodoxy.

Photius, Reader

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33183 04/04/05 06:03 AM
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Deacon John Montalvo Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Photius:

I was in Russia during part of the time when this happened. My recollection is that the Patriarch originally accepted the Pope of Rome's request to be invited to Russia, but then the pope demanded that he be treated as a senior bishop to the patriarch, whereupon the pope's visa was revoked.
Can you cite a source for this claim?

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33184 04/04/05 06:36 AM
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incognitus Offline
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Dear Photius,
(I had a good senior friend and mentor of the same name; he reposed about 20 years ago. But you remind me of him - and that is fully intended as a compliment!). I don't speak for the Administrator, nor for anyone who contributes to the organization and continuance of this forum, but for myself, allow me to comment that your presence is not only welcome but appreciated.

As to Pavloosh's comment that "The good Holy Spirit was at "work" when +Pope John Paul II extended his hand and his heart to the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church." - In itself, that's correct. But I have no reason to believe that it refers to any one specific occasion - if there were such a one specific occasion I think that I would be aware of it. The Pope tried several times to arrange a meeting with Patriarch Alexis II, but that meeting never took place. It could have occurred when the Patriarch was due to visit Austria and Hungary, but for whatever reason the Patriarch was not willing to meet at the time.

Your own suggestion that "the pope demanded that he be treated as a senior bishop to the patriarch, whereupon the pope's visa was revoked" surprises me on two counts. The second is the easier: since the Pope of Rome is the head of a sovereign state (albeit Vatican City is the size of a large postage stamp!) he does not need a visa when he travels, so he would not have had a visa to be revoked. But that's a matter of no particular importance. My other surprise comes from the thought that John Paul II demanded that Patriarch Alexis should treat him as a senior hierarch (senior to the Patriarch, presumably). That seems inconsistent with the Pope's conduct when he visited Constantinople, Damascus, Cairo, Jerusalem, Bucharest, Georgia and other places. Such a demand on the pope's part is not utterly impossible, but given his behavior elsewhere one does want some evidence for such inconsistency.

What appears to be the impending resolution of the schism between the Patriarchate and the Church Abroad is an entirely welcome and grace-filled development, for which we must all thank God. At the risk of being spiritually machiavellian, it would be well to hope that somehow this might also advance a reconciliation with the Old-Ritualists, but that is another discussion.


Granted that the comment that "... Sometimes I think there are two forms of Christianity - that taught by Jesus Christ Himself and that taught by the Moscow Patriarchate. ..." can easily be read as Orthodox bashing and is for that reason unfortunate, what is even more unfortunate is that, as you correctly imply, such an attitude is by no means exclusive either to Latins or to the Moscow Patriarchate. In praying for the unity of the Church, it is best to pray and seek for that unity which accords with the will of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church - which is obviously a pre-condition, but one that no genuine Christian can possibly refuse! It follows that it is up to the Lord Jesus Christ to determine what other conditions there are and will be, AND how to bring this about.

As to the Latins, I'll be even more critical - most of them are only vaguely aware of the existence of the Eastern Churches, and are not overly interested. Now there is an attitude which is guaranteed to get nowhere!

But enough of my pontificating for one day.

Incognitus

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33185 04/04/05 09:26 AM
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Father Gregory Offline
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Dear Reader Photius, I'm sorry, I don't believe for one second that Pope John Paul II ever demanded ANYTHING. He simply wasn't that kind of person---period. Now...I do remember that this SAME EXACT story is told by my seminary class president, George Weigel, in Witness to Hope (the biography of Pope John Paul II) about a meeting that was to take place in Rome between Patriarch Alexey and the Pope---BUT the demand was made by the Ecumenical Patriarch, who was going to be in Rome at the same time and demanded to be received BEFORE Alexey because he was 'first among equals.' Check your facts and I think you'll see that was the incident to which you refer, but your memory is not remembering it quite accurately.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33186 04/04/05 12:57 PM
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From RISU: Greek Catholic Head Travels to Vatican .

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον ηάς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33187 04/04/05 01:35 PM
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I think the wrangling for primacy between the EP and MP might be a bigger barrier to unity than anything happening between East and West. If those two patriarchs can't settle their differences, I don't see them finding common ground with anyone outside of Orthodoxy.

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33188 04/04/05 05:41 PM
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If you're interested in the comments about Husar on CNN on Sunday morning, here's a portion of the transcript:

ROBERT MOYNIHAN, INSIDE THE VATICAN: But on the plane I was able to talk with a cardinal who was coming over, Cardinal Husar from the Ukraine. And we had a very interesting conversation ...
The synodal aspect of the church was the thing he stressed, looking for a man who will take a chance...

AARON BROWN: Give me another sentence.

MOYNIHAN: Well, the church is very hierarchical and it reaches the summit at the pope. This has been troublesome for the orthodox, who have a synodal form of government. The orthodox is the other great branch of the Christian church. And of course, it is problematic for the Protestants as well. You kind of have like a king in charge of the church. All these other churches have presbyteries or episcopates or congregations that make the decisions. The Catholic Church has focused at the top level on the pope. They want the pope to -- the pope asked for advice in 1995, how can I change the way I function in order to create fewer problems for (UNINTELLIGIBLE), for us to get back together? And they are looking for a man who can perhaps find that way.

You can find the entire transcript at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/03/ltm.05.html

--tim

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33189 04/04/05 06:18 PM
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Also from the RISU news reports:

Quote
Greek Catholic Head Has “No Intention to Force the Situation and Declare Himself Patriarch”

04.04.2005, [15:21] Rome--.Cardinal Lubomyr (Husar), head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC), has “no intention to force the situation and declare himself patriarch.” The cardinal said this in an interview, published in “30 Days,” an influential Italian magazine. Religare.ru posted this news on 30 March 2005.

Cardinal Husar thinks that Ukraine's new President Viktor Yushchenko “would only benefit” from the creation of a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarchate. However, the cardinal has no intention to act unilaterally and complicate the situation. “The creation of a patriarchate is a solemn event in the life of the church, and it should proceed within the framework of legality,” he stressed.

Source: http://www.religare.ru/news15916.htm


Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33190 04/04/05 09:19 PM
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incognitus Offline
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How things do go and happen. There I was, watching the obsequies in Saint Peter's over TV in the comfort of an armchair when I suddenly noticed Patriarch Lubomyr. I thought I must be seeing things, so I rang the Bishop, who confirmed that that was indeed the Patriarch; he felt that the occasion is one which requires his presence. This will bear watching. Today, at least, he was walking without anyone guiding him, so he is certainly able to see sufficiently to walk around that rather complicated edifice.

Pope John Paul II demanded plenty of things from lots of people. He just never demanded anything for himself. And in the matter of honors, he seems to have appreciated Saint Paul's teaching that Christians should strive to outdo one another in GIVING honor, not in requiring it!

Recent events could very well require me to be away from my desk (and my armchair and TV set) for a while; please keep me in your prayers.

Incognitus

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33191 04/04/05 10:13 PM
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Dear incognitus...

Could it be that you are the missing "in pectore" Cardinal? We will watch the Conclave coverage to see if any of the cardinals are wearing bags over their heads...

Gaudior, who will certainly pray for you

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33192 04/04/05 10:41 PM
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i saw Major-Archbishop Lubomyr in the procession today on TV, so he is there :-)

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33193 04/04/05 11:07 PM
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Actually, you might even say, that Major Archbishop/Patriarch Lubomyr was VERY much there. He's definitely a man of substance. Seeing him today, reminded me of something that happened once in a Greek parish in Connecticut. It was the Sunday of Orthodoxy and a young auxiliary bishop presides and preached. He was a rather slim man...and preached forcefully and well, but an old Russian priest kept elbowing me and going: Pssssst...psssst. Then he said to me in broken English: Fader, where bishop is? I told him that was the bishop was preaching. Said he: No can be bishup...he too thin to be bishup; he too thinn. I'm still laughing just thinking about it.

In the Risen One,
+Fr. Gregory


+Father Archimandrite Gregory, who asks for your holy prayers!
Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33194 04/05/05 03:37 PM
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i saw Major-Archbishop Lubomyr in the procession today on TV
confused I saw Patriarch Lubomyr on TV. Don't know anything about a Major-Archbishop Lumbomyr. Who's he? confused

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33195 04/05/05 04:11 PM
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Joe T Offline
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Will he be attending as a Patriarch or as a Cardinal ? Will the College of Cardinals include all Patriarchs and Cardinal-Patriarchs? or will he be attending the College of Patriarchs? How come no one uses his title of Cardinal?

Joe

Re: Will Patriarch Lubomyr Be At Conclave? #33196 04/05/05 04:28 PM
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"Will he be attending as a Patriarch or as a Cardinal?"
As Cardinal as only they have the right to enter the conclave.

"Will the College of Cardinals include all Patriarchs and Cardinal-Patriarchs?"
Only Cardinal-Patriarchs under 80

"or will he be attending the College of Patriarchs?"
I don't know that such exist besides on paper or seating arrangements.

"How come no one uses his title of Cardinal?"
His title of Patriarch/Major Archbishop is still a higher honor than that of Cardinal.

He is quite easy to spot as he is the only Cardinal in black Byzantine monastic cowl and mandyas in choir or black kamilavka and riassa otherwise. No red in his attire.

Fr. Deacon Lance


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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