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Filioque text addition (not theology) #335125 10/16/09 12:34 AM
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mardukm Offline OP
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I have often heard that Eastern and Oriental Catholics added filioque to their Creed to "fit in" with the predominantly Latin environment in which they found themselves, especially in the Western countries.

I am wondering --- what about the Churches in the mother countries (i.e., not in the Western countries)? Was filioque added in the Liturgies there?

I asked this question in CAF, but have not gotten any responses. I suspect the EC and OC regulars there live in Western countries, and don't have the info to answer.

Blessings

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: mardukm] #335126 10/16/09 01:00 AM
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Prester John Offline
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An excellent question.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: Prester John] #335127 10/16/09 01:13 AM
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Otsheylnik Offline
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I don't believe where it was used it was used out of choice, but reflected what was written in the liturgical books. The famous book detailing all the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches seen here

http://www.librarything.com/work/1692870

states for each riet whether the filioque is said in the creed or not, and each rite it depicts is performed according to the official catholic books of its era. In the UGCC for example it used to be policy that the filioque was said and liturgical books reflected this. It is only recently that it was dropped (I can't remember when, but in the last decade - there was an article on www.catholicukes.org.au for a while about this - it may still be there in the archives somewhere).

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: mardukm] #335140 10/16/09 04:12 AM
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It's my understanding that all Eastern Catholic liturgies added the Filioque. Use of the Filioque used to be deemed necessary to the Catholic faith. The Melkites were the first to drop it. Early editions of Melkite prayer books (pre-Vatican II) contained the Filioque.

On this subject. The Catholic Church in Greece (Roman Rite) does not use the Filioque in the Roman Rite Mass in Greek. This is also a post-Vatican II development.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: DTBrown] #335175 10/16/09 08:28 PM
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Matta Offline
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Mardukm,
the Melkites didn't add the filioque to "fit in"--they were bullied into it. There was such great unrest against it that the Church nearly left communion.
The Roman Catholic Church then had a rather bizarre understanding of ecclesiology!

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: Matta] #335209 10/17/09 10:44 AM
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Otsheylnik Offline
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mardkum, this is not correct. The russian rite NEVER had it in. There are a number of others that never had it in there - I can't remember all of them off the top of my head. I don't believe that Grotto Ferrata ever said it, and interestingly the book I cited above has a section on the Greek (Byzantine) rite which is seperate from the melkite section, and the Greeks do not say it according to that source. It is important to note that though it is commonly said that the melkites represent the greek rite, it is not totally true; they are antiochene more than anything else, and do not preserve some Greek traditions.

Grotta Ferrata, and a few parishes around Greece are probably the most "Greek" as opposed to melkite that you will find these days in the RCC.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: Otsheylnik] #335210 10/17/09 10:46 AM
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Off the top of my head I think those rites descended from the Nestorian tradition never used the filioque.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: Otsheylnik] #335257 10/18/09 12:39 PM
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The Syro-Malankara Church has never included it.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: Michael_Thoma] #335258 10/18/09 01:31 PM
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Do many of the Catholic Churches descended from the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East even use the Creed in their liturgy? I believe that it only became a standing part of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy in the sixth century. If the Creed is not used in the Liturgy, then it doesn't have the high profile that caused many of the Greek Catholic Churches to being adding the Filioque, in order to be "more Catholic". Out of sight, out of mind.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: StuartK] #335270 10/18/09 09:50 PM
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I need to moderate my answer from earlier in the thread.

I was checking the book "Eastern Catholic Worship" (1945) and found this quote on page 33:

Quote
Eastern Catholics are not bound (though some do) to recite the clause "And from the Son" (of course they hold the theological truth that it represents). The words are not included in the creed in the official liturgical books published in Rome.


I have seen older Ukrainian, Melkite and Ruthenian texts with the filioque in the Creed. The Melkites and the Ruthenians have removed it. As far as I know, some Ukrainian parishes do not include it and most still do.

Just wondering: does anyone know if other Catholics of the Roman Rite recite the Creed without the filioque besides those in Greece? What about Roman Rite Catholics in Russia?

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: DTBrown] #335275 10/18/09 10:35 PM
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USCCB has resolved to remove it from vernacular celebrations of the Mass, but is working out how to do this.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: StuartK] #335278 10/18/09 11:01 PM
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Wow. I didn't realize that the USCCB had resolved to do that. Very interesting.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: DTBrown] #335279 10/18/09 11:07 PM
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The Ruthenian Churches (i.e., the Ukrainians and the Carpatho-Rusyn) were themselves responsible for the insertion of the Filioque into the Creed as used in their Churches. It was one of many examples of self-mutilation resulting from the Synod of Zamosc. It is interesting that the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia refers to this change as unnecessary, and notes that the Melkites, the Romanians and the Italo-Greeks never implemented them. Thus, if either the Melkites or the Romanian Greek Catholics were using the Filioque in this country, it must have been a local development, perhaps under pressure from the majority Latin Church, or in blind imitation of the already-established Ruthenians.

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: StuartK] #335363 10/20/09 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Do many of the Catholic Churches descended from the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East even use the Creed in their liturgy? I believe that it only became a standing part of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy in the sixth century. If the Creed is not used in the Liturgy, then it doesn't have the high profile that caused many of the Greek Catholic Churches to being adding the Filioque, in order to be "more Catholic". Out of sight, out of mind.


All of the Syriac Churches use the Creed - in the Holy Qurbono of St. James it is placed after the Trinitarian Blessing of the Censer. The Armenian version of the Creed is slightly different than those of any other Church (which begs the question, why do the Latins always get hassled by certain quarters in Eastern Orthodoxy regarding their 'clarification', but the Armenian Apostolic Church not?)

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) [Re: Michael_Thoma] #335391 10/20/09 09:29 AM
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mardukm Offline OP
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Copts also do not recite the entire Creed depending on the Liturgical Season.

Blessings.

P.S. Thank you for everyone's responses

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