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St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite #335430
10/20/09 09:35 PM
10/20/09 09:35 PM
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Irondale,AL
Pani Rose Offline OP
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Somethings a movin'....

As rain fell in St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite was celebrated this morning in Latin in St. Peter's Basilica by American Archbishop Raymond Burke. After Mass, the sun came out over the Square, in a blue sky. Photos...

It was the first time a solemn High Mass according to the old rite has been celebrated in St. Peter's Basilica since 1969, 40 years ago....

http://www.insidethevatican2.com/in...introibo-ad-altoare-.html&Itemid=169

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Pani Rose] #335435
10/20/09 10:34 PM
10/20/09 10:34 PM
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Mateusz Offline
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indeed something is a movin. this Pope slowly but surely is bringing back sacred Tradition in the Church. This Traditional Anglican move is part of the big picture too and a sign of authentic ecumenism.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Mateusz] #335440
10/21/09 12:06 AM
10/21/09 12:06 AM
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Economos Roman V. Russo Offline
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Once again, why is this newsworthy on a Byzantine blog?

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #335448
10/21/09 03:08 AM
10/21/09 03:08 AM
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Pani Rose Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
Once again, why is this newsworthy on a Byzantine blog?


It is about restoration. Whether East or West, we must become true to who we are. I pray more in the West will understand that about the East, as well as the East understanding it about itself.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Pani Rose] #335453
10/21/09 04:35 AM
10/21/09 04:35 AM
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Pani Rose Offline OP
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I thought this was interesting as to why this is important to the East biggrin It is really about this, and the Anglicans...

Saint Paul of the Cross and the Conversion of England
Tuesday October 20, 2009

As I have discussed before ("Pope Benedict: A Pontiff With a Plan"), Pope Benedict XVI is very sensitive to the message that certain dates send. Summorum Pontificum, for instance, was signed on June 29, the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul, when the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch sends representatives to Rome each year to take part in the celebration of the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul (and sometimes comes himself). The Orthodox have long been concerned about the decline of the liturgy in the Western Church, and the revival of the Traditional Latin Mass was seen as a major step in the right direction.
http://catholicism.about.com/b/2009/10/20/saint-paul-of-the-cross-and-the-conversion-of-england.htm

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Pani Rose] #335474
10/21/09 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Pani Rose


It was the first time a solemn High Mass according to the old rite has been celebrated in St. Peter's Basilica since 1969, 40 years ago....


Bishop Nkoue of Benin celebrated Tridentine Mass in St. Peters in November 2006. Also, there were low Masses in the Hungarian Chapel, and private Masses (one even from the SSPX).

Quote
The Orthodox have long been concerned about the decline of the liturgy in the Western Church, and the revival of the Traditional Latin Mass was seen as a major step in the right direction.


Sure! But I wonder how it was possible that the Orthodox have never created a liturgy out of the blue, as the West did.

Last edited by PeterPeter; 10/21/09 02:00 PM.
Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: PeterPeter] #335478
10/21/09 03:28 PM
10/21/09 03:28 PM
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Cardiff, United Kingdom
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Quote
Sure! But I wonder how it was possible that the Orthodox have never created a liturgy out of the blue, as the West did.


I'm sorry. What do you mean by this? Are you suggesting that the Novus Ordo (NO) was manufactured 'out of the blue'? Because if so, for all its faults, it is important not to confuse the sorely abused NO with what actually exists in the Latin text.

Again, not perfect; but it can hardly be described as entirely 'created out of the blue'! I know good, sound, historical liturgists who are quite happy with the NO as celebrated at Westminster Cathedral, for example, or Holy Name in Manchester.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Slavophile] #335479
10/21/09 03:50 PM
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No one in the history of the Church has ever celebrated Novus Ordo before it was created in the late 1960s. Archbishop Bugnini and his supporters have created a liturgy by inventing some elements (Eucharistic Prayer for children), incorporating some historical elements, and incorporating some elements they believed to be historical (3rd Eucharistic Prayer, celebration versus populum) - even though they're not.

Also the critical analysis of the new Mass by cardinals Bacci & Ottaviani copes with the original Latin text.

"in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it--as in a manufacturing process--with a fabrication, a banal on- the-spot product."

Who said that? (don't google) smile

Last edited by PeterPeter; 10/21/09 03:52 PM.
Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: PeterPeter] #335480
10/21/09 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterPeter

"in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it--as in a manufacturing process--with a fabrication, a banal on- the-spot product."

Who said that? (don't google) smile


Cardinal Ratzinger?

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: babochka] #335481
10/21/09 04:09 PM
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Yes, in an introduction to a book entitled "The Reform of the Roman Liturgy - its problems and background" by Msgr Klaus Gamber.

The problem with the liturgists is that for 40 years their job was to convince people of the superiority of the new rite.

Behind the Novus Ordo stands the same positivist attitude to the liturgy as behind the Ruthenian Revised Divine Liturgy.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: PeterPeter] #335517
10/22/09 03:05 AM
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I think we need to define what 'organic' development means.
Does it mean it dissemination?
Does it mean the many portion it include from previous version?
Does it mean never purging elements from previous version? If may, to what extent? Who the arbiter to say this much is enough?
etc.

When we are fussing about this being organic this being non organic, each head has its own definition and we are stuck most often to personal preferences.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: Alfonsus] #335570
10/22/09 05:53 PM
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Like in a growing organism - by, e.g. introduction of reasonable customs (small changes) with consent (even tacit) of a legitimate authority, in a certain region. That's a slow, more bottom-up process than top-down. The idea of establishing a remote Central Committee with a purpose other than codifying what is in use (and maybe preventing bad customs and abuses) is foreign to it.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: PeterPeter] #335602
10/22/09 09:41 PM
10/22/09 09:41 PM
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Rome has always forbidden bottom-up...

If bottom up is organic, then the organic changes are Comunion under both species and communion in the hand.

Now, from the bottom up, the call for more of the bible in the lection choices was present amongst the Roman Church.

But due to the way the Roman Church operates, and due to the Bishops' role as moderators of the liturgy, only a general council can effect change to the Roman Liturgy.

The process for V II was as organic as the process for Trent: Top-down, "here is the new book, use it."


Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: aramis] #335621
10/23/09 03:56 AM
10/23/09 03:56 AM
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And how much is reasonable?
Who is the arbiter of this degree of reasonableness?
I say this much is too much.
They say this much is enough.
Authority say this huge portion is reasonable, they gave consent.

How slow is slow enough?
I say in a 100 years is slow enough.
Other people say 50 years is slow enough.
Authority say a several years is slow enough, they gave consent and mandated.

Even if there are gradual changes in an area, when codification come in, still an authorized committee need to give consent, purge what is they deem not worthy, add what is deemed worthy.
And then we back again to this circle of "how much, how long, how reasonable" problem again with 1000 heads have their own definition and parameters of what consists of an organic development means.

Re: St Peter's Square, a solemn High Mass according to the old rite [Re: aramis] #335625
10/23/09 04:59 AM
10/23/09 04:59 AM
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To Pani Rose
Re: It is about restoration. Whether East or West, we must become true to who we are. I pray more in the West will understand that about the East, as well as the East understanding it about itself.

These are really good thoughts. In retrospect, I tried to tune out the changes- music, altar girls, talking in church, communion in the hand from lay people, the "cup" –by clinging to one simple thought without elaborating on it: "God was there before Vatican II and God is here now, so get over it. Back in the beginning, my husband was in the army, late 60s and 70s. No one seemed to believe in God anymore???? Everything I “knew” changed. Honestly, sometimes it almost seemed as though my early years were a dream. Then I decided what I knew was true, and the entire world had gone mad.

Within the last 6 or so years, I’ve noticed the beauty and reverence in Eastern Church worship and began to study everything I could get my hands on about Byzantine Catholic Liturgy, culture, even Church Slavonic. Secretly I was planning an escape. When I was ready, I quietly resigned from my parish and that very afternoon registered at a nearby Byzantine Catholic Church. I wanted to stay within the fold. It was the most wonderful experience which sadly came to an end when I discovered I needed my bishop's permission before I could change rites. It wasn't impossible. At first I was angry but was glad not to have said anything negative because I came to see that the objective of the rule was really a lovely, respectful way the church (East and West) stayed in communion with one another- I like that.

I continued to yearn for Orthodoxy and still only listen to Orthodox music and radio. One day I was so overwhelmed with the sheer beauty of it all- I leaped up from my computer and said "God I want to go there, please help me find a loop-hole! I took the "Journey to Orthodoxy" ...sort of.
There came the moment I’d avoided, when I had to make a decision one way or the other. After I confessed to one of my instructors, he graciously invited me to come back from time to time and attend the liturgy.

What was the point of it all? Only God knew so many parishes would begin to offer Tridentine Masses. I go with my children, grandchildren- it’s so good. And, just as you suggested, Pani Rose- by the grace of God I came to know and dearly love the Eastern Church, there’s no division in my heart. Every single day I pray for God the Holy Spirit to come and make us one.

Columba

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