Finally I wonder how it is that Filaret Denisenko wants to improve his relationship with Ecumenical Orthodoxy if he is pouching the parishes which are in fact under the omophor of the EP.

There seemed to be a great number of priests who concelebrated with Patriarch Filaret. Are there that many parishes who have elected to follow him?

Deacon Borislav,

As I pointed out to another poster recently, it is the long-standing policy of this forum that all clergy of the Apostolic Churches be addressed by their canonical title, in this case 'Patriarch' and not by their unadorned Christian or family name. That rule applies whether or not the hierarch is one with whom you are in communion.

Many years,

Neil

Deacon Borislav,

There looked like there are a lot of people in attendence from the videos and pictures I have seen. I know that in my parish (which is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA under the omaphorion of the Ecuumenical Patriarch)there are a lot of people that are very pro-Ukrainian and upset at the hierarchs of our Ukrainian Orthodox Church and have talked about leaving the consistory and joining the Kyivan-Patriarchate for some time. Our president stated that he has heard a lot of other members from other parishes exploring the possibility of leaving the consistory as well due to the Clifton NJ verdict. I currently dont know where I stand personally, I dont like the idea of leaving because it will split our parish but on the other hand I see no problem with a Ukrainian Orthodox Church with out own Patriarch like we had with Patriarch Mstyslav. Was Patriarch Msytylav and his succesor Patriach Volodymyr recognized as patriarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate? Werent our hierarchs Mt. Constantine and ab Antony under Mstyslav when he was Patriarch? I am very confused. I was born here but I do know that the Russian Orthodox Church as well at the Soviets murdered, persecuted, and outlawed the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church until Ukraine achieved her independence. I do know that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should NOT be under the Russians. There are also rumors that our new bishop, his emminence bishop Daniel, was kicked out of the Catholic Church and only became Orthodox a few years ago? I hope those are just vicious rumors. I stated that it may be possible he switched his faith but I doubt he was "kicked out".

Deacon Borislav;

I know that the Russian Orthodox church was discouraged by the Soviets as communists are athiests. However the Russain Orthodox Church was discouraged, the Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholic Church were outlawed and persecuted. To say that Russians and Ukrainians suffered equally by the Soviet is wrong. Let us not forget the Holodomor of 32-33. So was bishop Daniel Catholic before he became Orthodox? Was it Byzantine Catholic or Roman Catholic? As for Ukrainians that were communists, yes some Ukrainians were communists as it was THE ONLY party allowed until 1990. However I doubt members of Rukh were Russian. Are our hierarchs in negotiations with the Kyivan church to form a more united Ukrainian Orthodox Church? I dont understand, you seem to support Moscow, but not the Ukrainian church and arent we members of a Ukrainian church?

Deacon Borislav;
I dont understand, you seem to support Moscow, but not the Ukrainian church and arent we members of a Ukrainian church?

I respect the rules of the forum, but I would also ask the moderators to respect the cannons of the Orthodox Church. A heirarch who has been deposed by the Mother Church hardly falls into the category of having a "canonical title".

I will refrain from referring to said individual by his surname and simply refer to him as the "current leader of KP."

Thank you for your understanding.

Deacon Borislav

Will people plese stop with the specious statements that Russia suffered just as much as Ukraine did under communism?! Did atrocities occur against Russians, yes, but no where on the scale that occurred in Ukraine plain and simple. No matter what former KGB people tell you its not the case.

This is what man is capable of doing when he forgets God.

* the executions of tens of thousands of hostages and prisoners, and the murder of hundreds of thousands of rebellious workers and peasants from 1918 to 1922 (See also: Red Terror)
* the Russian famine of 1921, which caused the death of 5 million people
* the extermination and deportation of the Don Cossacks in 1920
* the murder of tens of thousands in concentration camps in the period between 1918 and 1930
* the Great Purge which killed almost 690,000 people
* the deportation of 2 million so-called "kulaks" from 1930 to 1932
* the deaths of 4 million Ukrainians (Holodomor) and 2 million others during the famine of 1932 and 1933
* the deportations of Poles, Ukrainians, Moldavians and people from the Baltic Republics from 1939 to 1941 and from 1944 to 1945
* the deportation of the Volga Germans in 1941
* the deportation of the Crimean Tatars in 1943
* the deportation of the Chechens in 1944
* the deportation of the Ingush in 1944.(p. 9-10) (See also: Population transfer in the Soviet Union)

In conclusion I think it extremely unprofitable to point fingers at each other and argue about who the biggest victim was.

In conclusion I think it extremely unprofitable to point fingers at each other and argue about who the biggest victim was.

A number of studies have been released in the past two decades. I got my figures from The Black Book of Communism, which is perhaps the most comprehensive survey of that depraved ideology. The Soviet Union killed approximately 15-20 million people in the Revolution and Civil War. Stalin did in another 20 million or so through the purges and run-of-the-mill terror between the early thirties and his death in 1953. Hitler killed some 20 million Russians, Ukrainians and Belorusians on top of this. The best estimate for the Hodomor is 3.5-4.0 million, from starvation, disease, torture and execution.

Was Patriarch Msytylav and his succesor Patriach Volodymyr recognized as patriarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate? Werent our hierarchs Mt. Constantine and ab Antony under Mstyslav when he was Patriarch?

I find that to be a bit odd.

On Sunday, October 25th, His Holiness served a Patriarchal Divine Liturgy at St. Andrew's in Bloomingdale. Other than Metropolitan Iziaslav (Brutskiy),of the Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church...

Dear Deacon Borislav:

It seems that somewhere between the person who observed the events in Chicago and your report above some confusion was introduced.

On Saturday, October 24th, His Holiness Patriarch Filaret served a Panahida for the repose of the souls of those who perished in the Holodomor genocide. Two Byzantine Catholic priests from Chicago participated, and many faithful from other Orthodox and Catholic churches in the greater Chicago area attended. While there is no concelebration of liturgy, clergy of the Ukrainian Orthodox, including UOC-USA, and Greek and Byzantine Catholic churches have always prayed together at memorial services of this type. In fact, this was the first year that UOC-USA clergy chose not to participate in the Holodomor Memorial Service in Chicago.

On Sunday, October 25th, His Holiness served a Patriarchal Divine Liturgy at St. Andrew's in Bloomingdale. Other than Metropolitan Iziaslav (Brutskiy),of the Belarusian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, all of the clergy were clergy of the UOC-KP, namely:

Archbishop Alexander (Bykowitz), St. Andrew UOC, Detroit, MI
Archimandrite Epiphany (Dumenko), who accompanied His Holiness from Ukraine
Archimandrite Pytyrym (Cherwiatuk), Holy Protection UOC, Chicago, IL
Very Rev. Victor Poliarny, St. Andrew UOC, Bloomingdale, IL
Very Rev. Oleh Zhovnirowych, Holy Ascension UOC, Clifton, NJ
Very Rev. Bohdan Zhoba, Holy Trinity UOC, North Royalton, OH
Very Rev. Boris Zabrodsky, St. Nicholas UOC, Homewood, IL
Very Rev. Alexander Dviniatin, Holy Trinity UOC, Bridgeport, CT
Very Rev. Stefan Zencuch, Transfiguration UOC, Panama City, FL
Rev. Roman Glotov, St, Stephen UOC, Brunswick, OH
Rev. Michael Tsiuman, Mother of God of Pochaiv Parish, Philadelphia, PA
Rev. Michael Pasieka, currently unattached, Chicago, IL
Rev. Michael Vasenda, St. Sophia UOC, Chicago, IL

Although there were some visitors, mostly from the other Ukrainian Orthodox churches in the greater Chicago area, the overwhelming majority of those present at the liturgy were the regular faithful of St. Andrew UOC. There are many photos and videos the the liturgy, including those attached to the Chicago Daily Herald article which user Diak posted to begin this thread.

As to commemoration of the Ecumenical Patriarch and other patriarchs, Patriarch Filaret, just as Patriarchs Mstyslav and Volodymyr before him, commemorates in due order the primates of all national churches, with the exception of the Patriarch of Moscow. The Patriarchs of Kyiv have not commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow as, from the Kyivan perspective, Moscow has created and is perpetuating a schism in the Ukrainian Church.

As to "poaching", the Synod of the UOC-KP has welcomed back to the Kyivan Patriarchate all parishes in the US who democratically expressed their desire to return to the Kyivan Church through open balloting of their members. Out of caution, the Synod even waited for the New Jersey courts to decide the first round of litigation filed by the UOC-USA against the faithful of Holy Ascension before offering protection to that parish. Again, although both you and user Progressive have stated that most of the faithful at St. Andrew's in Bloomingdale left the parish, at the actual parish meeting where the vote was taken, more than 80% of those voting chose to return to Kyiv.

I understand that you feel differently, but I really do not feel that this fits the definition of "poaching".


Yours in Christ,

Priest Paul Koroluk, UOC-KP