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I believe that is the parish that recently went in to schism. What a disaster.

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He is visiting the US at the same time as the Ecumenical Patriarch?

David

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Yes, this is in fact the parish that recently went into schism.

The parish also fired a wonderful priest, Father Bohdan Kalynyuk who revitalized the community and brought many new people into the parish. Father Bohdan refused to take his flock into schism and was punished by the instigators of this tragic and shameful event.

The good news is that most of the people followed Fr. Bohdan and are now holding services in a parish that the local Roman Catholic community has been gracious enough to let them use.

Let us pray for both those who followed Fr. Bohdan, but also those who were separated from the Mother Church in this horrible schism.

Finally I wonder how it is that Filaret Denisenko wants to improve his relationship with Ecumenical Orthodoxy if he is pouching the parishes which are in fact under the omophor of the EP.


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Interesting advertising slogan:

PATRIARCH SHOPS AT BLOOMINGDALES!

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Deacon Borislav:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

There seemed to be a great number of priests who concelebrated with Patriarch Filaret. Are there that many parishes who have elected to follow him?

BOB

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Deacon Borislav,

There looked like there are a lot of people in attendence from the videos and pictures I have seen. I know that in my parish (which is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA under the omaphorion of the Ecuumenical Patriarch)there are a lot of people that are very pro-Ukrainian and upset at the hierarchs of our Ukrainian Orthodox Church and have talked about leaving the consistory and joining the Kyivan-Patriarchate for some time. Our president stated that he has heard a lot of other members from other parishes exploring the possibility of leaving the consistory as well due to the Clifton NJ verdict. I currently dont know where I stand personally, I dont like the idea of leaving because it will split our parish but on the other hand I see no problem with a Ukrainian Orthodox Church with out own Patriarch like we had with Patriarch Mstyslav. Was Patriarch Msytylav and his succesor Patriach Volodymyr recognized as patriarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate? Werent our hierarchs Mt. Constantine and ab Antony under Mstyslav when he was Patriarch? I am very confused. I was born here but I do know that the Russian Orthodox Church as well at the Soviets murdered, persecuted, and outlawed the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church until Ukraine achieved her independence. I do know that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should NOT be under the Russians. There are also rumors that our new bishop, his emminence bishop Daniel, was kicked out of the Catholic Church and only became Orthodox a few years ago? I hope those are just vicious rumors. I stated that it may be possible he switched his faith but I doubt he was "kicked out".

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Dear Theophan,

I am not exactly sure on the number, but I don't think it is more than 4 or 5.

I could be wrong however.

None of our clergy would have concelebrated with him, since we are not in communion.

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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
Finally I wonder how it is that Filaret Denisenko wants to improve his relationship with Ecumenical Orthodoxy if he is pouching the parishes which are in fact under the omophor of the EP.


Deacon Borislav,

As I pointed out to another poster recently, it is the long-standing policy of this forum that all clergy of the Apostolic Churches be addressed by their canonical title, in this case 'Patriarch' and not by their unadorned Christian or family name. That rule applies whether or not the hierarch is one with whom you are in communion.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by theophan
There seemed to be a great number of priests who concelebrated with Patriarch Filaret. Are there that many parishes who have elected to follow him?


As of today, there are 15 chartered UOC-KP parishes in the United States, including nine which currently remain listed on the UOC-USA website. A list of parishes of the UOC-KP North American Vicariate can be found here, although it has not yet been updated to include St. Andrews in Bloomingdale or the new parish in Philadelphia:

http://cerkva-usa.info/spysok_parafiy.html

At least two other UOC-USA parishes have passed resolutions calling on the UOC-USA to return to the Kyiv Patriarchate. I do suspect, and have been told, that the litigation filed by the Consistory of the UOC-USA against Holy Ascension in Clifton, New Jersey dissuaded a number of others from taking visible action.

At St. Andrew's, which I believe has the largest active membership of any Ukrainian Orthodox parish in the United States, over 80% of the members, including every one of the surviving founders, voted to return to the Kyiv Patriarchate.

Fr. Bohdan Kalynyuk, who is a great priest and good man whom I have served with and respect greatly, remains well thought of by the faithful of St. Andrew's. He was invited to stay on as pastor of the parish, but he declined. As Fr. Bohdan has always had good words about Patriarch Filaret and the UOC-KP, I would not have expected him to make that choice, but I respect his decision.

While some of the faithful did leave St. Andrew's after the vote, at least a few others, including the former parish board secretary and choir director of St. Volodymyr Cathedral, have moved to St. Andrew's. I do sincerely hope that everyone finds a home.


Yours in Christ,

Priest Paul Koroluk, UOC-KP



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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
Finally I wonder how it is that Filaret Denisenko wants to improve his relationship with Ecumenical Orthodoxy if he is pouching the parishes which are in fact under the omophor of the EP.


Deacon Borislav,

As I pointed out to another poster recently, it is the long-standing policy of this forum that all clergy of the Apostolic Churches be addressed by their canonical title, in this case 'Patriarch' and not by their unadorned Christian or family name. That rule applies whether or not the hierarch is one with whom you are in communion.

Many years,

Neil


I respect the rules of the forum, but I would also ask the moderators to respect the cannons of the Orthodox Church. A heirarch who has been deposed by the Mother Church hardly falls into the category of having a "canonical title".

I will refrain from referring to said individual by his surname and simply refer to him as the "current leader of KP."

Thank you for your understanding.

Deacon Borislav

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Originally Posted by Bohdan
Deacon Borislav,

There looked like there are a lot of people in attendence from the videos and pictures I have seen. I know that in my parish (which is a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA under the omaphorion of the Ecuumenical Patriarch)there are a lot of people that are very pro-Ukrainian and upset at the hierarchs of our Ukrainian Orthodox Church and have talked about leaving the consistory and joining the Kyivan-Patriarchate for some time. Our president stated that he has heard a lot of other members from other parishes exploring the possibility of leaving the consistory as well due to the Clifton NJ verdict. I currently dont know where I stand personally, I dont like the idea of leaving because it will split our parish but on the other hand I see no problem with a Ukrainian Orthodox Church with out own Patriarch like we had with Patriarch Mstyslav. Was Patriarch Msytylav and his succesor Patriach Volodymyr recognized as patriarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kyivan Patriarchate? Werent our hierarchs Mt. Constantine and ab Antony under Mstyslav when he was Patriarch? I am very confused. I was born here but I do know that the Russian Orthodox Church as well at the Soviets murdered, persecuted, and outlawed the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church until Ukraine achieved her independence. I do know that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church should NOT be under the Russians. There are also rumors that our new bishop, his emminence bishop Daniel, was kicked out of the Catholic Church and only became Orthodox a few years ago? I hope those are just vicious rumors. I stated that it may be possible he switched his faith but I doubt he was "kicked out".


Dear Bohdan,

His Grace Bishop Daniel was not "kicked out" by anyone. He became Orthodox. Why he did so is a question best reserved for His Grace, but I can tell you that he is a wonderful, warm and loving person who has been a true blessing for our Church. I have known him over four years and I can only pray that I am able to imitate Bishop Daniels dedication to the Orthodox Church.

I would also advise you to do some research on the Soviet Era in Ukraine and Russia. You will find that the Godless Soviets persecuted and drove both the Ukrainian Orthodox and Russian Orthodox Churches to the brink of complete destruction. As some one who was born in Ukraine I can tell you that there were millions of Ukrainians who not only collaborated with the Communists but were themselves members of the Communist party.

The Russian people suffered just like the Ukrainians.

As Ukrainians we need to work and pray for a canonical resolution to the problem of Autocephally.

I hope and pray that the dialogue between UOC-MP and KP bring forth fruit of unity, however until that happens we should not and can not commune at any KP parish. They are outside the Holy Orthodox Church.


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Deacon Borislav;

I know that the Russian Orthodox church was discouraged by the Soviets as communists are athiests. However the Russain Orthodox Church was discouraged, the Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholic Church were outlawed and persecuted. To say that Russians and Ukrainians suffered equally by the Soviet is wrong. Let us not forget the Holodomor of 32-33. So was bishop Daniel Catholic before he became Orthodox? Was it Byzantine Catholic or Roman Catholic? As for Ukrainians that were communists, yes some Ukrainians were communists as it was THE ONLY party allowed until 1990. However I doubt members of Rukh were Russian. Are our hierarchs in negotiations with the Kyivan church to form a more united Ukrainian Orthodox Church? I dont understand, you seem to support Moscow, but not the Ukrainian church and arent we members of a Ukrainian church?

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Deacon Borislav:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

Our rule about titles is not a reflection on the Holy Orthodox Church or her canons, or her practice. We simply, out of courtesy to all, use the titles that people give to themselves without judging them in any way. I know that can cut across the grain, so to speak, when one has to address a person outside one's own communion by a title that that person would not be entitled to from our own point of view, but that's the etiquette we practice here in American--messy, but it keeps the tensions down. I hope you can understand this.

I, myself, as a Catholic had to learn that when I went to work in my field. Addressing some of the self-ordained and self-proclaimed as "Pastor" or "Reverend" really was a hurdle, but I learned to do it. (I'm not referring to mainstream Protestants, but those who have their calling either from a private revelation or sometimes from the internet.) I may not agree with it internally, but to function in this pluralistic society I had to do it.

On the other hand, I truly feel the same level of profound respect for an Orthodox priest that I do for my own priest, but find it amazing that there are co-religionists of mine who don't feel that an Orthodox priest is "really a priest" and it nearly drives me to distraction to try to explain to them the whole idea of Apostolic orders and even the statements made over 40 years ago at our Vatican Council--somehow the "word" hasn't filtered down to the people in the pew.

So we call Anglican clergy "Father" and Lutheran clergy "Pastor" and each one receives the respect due to him in a pluralistic society.

But please bear with us.

Your brother in Christ,

BOB
Moderator (yes, one of those)

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Dear Bob,

I apologize for breaking the rules of the forum. I will refrain from using the surname of the leader of KP.

Thank you for your understanding.

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