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Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Thomas the Seeker] #336070 10/29/09 04:36 AM
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Logos - Alexis Offline
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Wait - eulogies are not allowed at Roman Catholic Requiem Masses.

Alexis

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Logos - Alexis] #336082 10/29/09 12:13 PM
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sielos ilgesys Offline
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But apparently canonizations are, judging from my last few experiences with RC funerals.

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: sielos ilgesys] #336085 10/29/09 02:57 PM
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Prester John Offline
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It's about the Resurrection.


Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Logos - Alexis] #336089 10/29/09 05:17 PM
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theophan Offline
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. . . eulogies are not allowed . . .


????

Alexis--in most places they've had to be restricted in number and in the allowable amount of time. They've become rather common over the last 25 or more years.

BOB

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: theophan] #336245 11/01/09 06:59 PM
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I just attended a pentecostal funeral. From their theology, there is no need to think about the deceased's sins nor to pray for his soul since his fate is sealed. There were about 8 short eulogies and a sermon that did proclaim the gospel for the benefit of those who did not have a personal relationship with Jesus and whose minds may have been temporarily refocused on their eternal destiny. The deceased was assumed to be in heaven because he was known to be a believer. The "celebration of life" approach makes sense given their theology. And some of the deceased's non-Christian friends may have benefited from the sermon.

I think for both Catholics and Orthodox, there is a proper time to remember the gift of the deceased's life but it is not the formal services.

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: sielos ilgesys] #336272 11/02/09 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
The choir of Holy Trinity Cathedral (OCA?) on Green Street in San Francisco has recorded the Byzantine funeral service on a CD in English. It's called "Bright Sadness". Listening to it from time to time helps put my addled head back on track.


I heard our choir rehearsing the prayers from this CD today for this Panikhida tomorrow. smile Some parts were also sung at the conclusion of DL today, in memory of the falling asleep of a parishioner's relative.

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: likethethief] #337830 11/21/09 11:00 PM
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Penthaetria Offline
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I just returned from my first Latin Catholic funeral in nearly 20 years. After the communion rite but before the benediction, various family members and friends got up to read poetry and speak about the deceased. This lasted about 45 minutes.

The priest then gave the final prayers and said, "This tribute is ended. Go in peace."

Ummmmm. Wow. 'Nuff said.

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Penthaetria] #337832 11/21/09 11:42 PM
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Alice Offline
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Although it isn't the norm, the funeral (Greek Orthodox) of my husband's relative a few days ago, included a eulogy from the president of the women's philanthropic group of the parish which she was heavily involved in, and even the priest who worked with her on that charity! It was said after the service, from the solea, and before the final farewell. I have heard a eulogy also at a funeral in Greece, and also once again at a Greek Orthodox funeral in the U.S.

Isn't a eulogy in essence, a tribute?


Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Alice] #337834 11/21/09 11:46 PM
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Penthaetria Offline
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True, Alice. But when the priest substituted "tribute" for "mass," it seemed as though the purpose of the gathering had indeed been forgotten. The "celebration of life" of one individual took precedence over the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Does what I'm saying make sense?

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Penthaetria] #337835 11/21/09 11:50 PM
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Alice Offline
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Okay, *now* I understood what point you were making and I see your point.


Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: JoeFlorida] #337846 11/22/09 01:10 AM
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Alice Offline
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Originally Posted by JoeFlorida
Bob - thank you for your message. In my experience both as eulogizing a loved one and listening to them - it is to remember the good works they have done and to remind us through the deceased that we are called to do good works. In the Roman Catholic liturgy the eulogy was done in such a way to tie it to the readings - and on those occassions when the homilist could they tied it into what how we are all called to live.

I found the Byzantine Catholic prayer service to be very focused on the deceased sins. I know that we are all sinners, but to my ear there seemed to be greater emphasis on her sins. As one friend said; it didn't seem forgiving. I could be a misunderstanding of the service - but that's why I'm asking for clarification and understanding of the liturgies.

Thanks,

Joe


It is deep rooted Orthodox theology that the first forty days after one's death are very important to his place in eternity...so our prayers are strongly focused on asking our merciful God to forgive their sins and to bring them to His Kingdom. We acknowledge the great mystery of death but also the great mercy of God in the continual emphasis of our Eastern prayers to forgive the deceased sins.

How the deceased lived their life is important but praying for their *eternal* life is much more important!

We cannot just assume that the deceased is in Heaven. I would be most surprised if this was *traditional* Roman Catholic theology. I think that what you are describing is what has evolved to be a more innovative/Protestanized *modern* (post VaticanII) American Catholicism?


Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Penthaetria] #337851 11/22/09 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Penthaetria
True, Alice. But when the priest substituted "tribute" for "mass," it seemed as though the purpose of the gathering had indeed been forgotten. The "celebration of life" of one individual took precedence over the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Does what I'm saying make sense?


I think the Priest's substitution of words at the Dismissal may have been sarcasm.

The Holy Supper of our Lord is not to be confused with a testimonial dinner!

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Alice] #337852 11/22/09 02:28 AM
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theophan Offline
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ALICE:

Your observation is very astute. So often today the Latin Catholic funeral has become a sort of "canonization" of the deceased that leaves everyone with the idea that once it's over we can all go back to our lives and forget about the traditonal idea that we ought to pray for the soul of the departed. It amazes me that the catechesis given to the young leaves them with this idea and when you bring up the subject of praying for the dead, they look at you as if you were an alien. I think it's been longer in coming, however, than just post-Vatican II. The monht's mind is something that the most elderly remembered when I began my service to families, but it isn't something that was even part of my parents' generation, beginning with about the 1930s. My grandparents and great-grandparents regularly prayed for their departed loved ones, but that's not something that has been a part of my parents' practice or even known to my children as soemthing that Catholics ought to do. Of course it didn't help that my wife's sister--the nun--always made it her business to point out that I was too conservative and to tell my wife to try to root out any prayers or practices I tries to teach my children.

BOB

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: theophan] #337858 11/22/09 04:16 AM
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Alice Offline
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Of course it didn't help that my wife's sister--the nun--always made it her business to point out that I was too conservative and to tell my wife to try to root out any prayers or practices I tries to teach my children.


That is too bad. Sisters-in-laws, and all other inlaws should really try to mind their own business unless something horrible is happening. I guess she thought that religion is horrible, so I am assuming that she is not really a nun? Or is she?

When my grandfather died in 1982, he had many customers/friends who were Roman Catholic, and as I was the one writing out the 'thank yous' for the condolences, I remember that there were many beautiful Mass cards from them, enrolling him for prayer...so it was from there I got the impression that prayer for the dead was important for Catholics. Ofcourse he was 81 at the time of his passing, so his friends who sent those cards couldn't have been much younger...I guess that was indeed a much older generation...

Alice

Re: Byzantine Funeral Rite [Re: Thomas the Seeker] #337859 11/22/09 04:55 AM
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Penthaetria Offline
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Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
I think the Priest's substitution of words at the Dismissal may have been sarcasm.

The Holy Supper of our Lord is not to be confused with a testimonial dinner!
Alas, Thomas, it was not sarcasm. he meant it sincerely. He made some further comment about what a wonderful tribute it was. Etc etc etc.

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