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#336332 - 11/02/09 07:07 PM
Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
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#336349 - 11/03/09 12:34 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Wolfgang]
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Global Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
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Memory eternal
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#336361 - 11/03/09 04:49 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Irish Melkite]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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This is serious grief. Holy Ghost is full of history and memories; surely a way to keep it alive could be found.
Fr. Serge
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#336367 - 11/03/09 07:17 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6013
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Demography is destiny. I suppose we could have some sort of forced resettlement of the Greek Catholics from their comfortable suburbs and erect state-owned industries to keep them employed, but the sad fact is Cleveland is--and has been for some time--a dying city losing population at a rate approaching 1-3% per year. No people, no Church.
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#336381 - 11/03/09 12:34 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: John K]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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With good will and determination, sometimes things which seem impossible can be done. Cardinal Spellman announced the closing of Old Saint Patrick's Cathedral in New York, and turned up to celebrate the final Mass - and was faced with an enormous crowd of irate Irish Catholics who had family connections with the Old Cathedral. The Cardinal had the good sense to call the clan heads over to his car and ask what on earth was going on. They put the same question to him. He answered that the Old Cathedral had not been self-supporting for years, and it was unreasonable to expect the Archdiocese to subsidize it forever. The clan heads then made him an offer: they would raise the money for a good renovation and continue to raise the money to pay the ongoing expenses, and the Archdiocese would agree that the Old Cathedral, while remaining a parish church for the neighborhood, would always be available for special services for the Irish community. Both sides agreed; the Old Cathedral looks lovely, has no financial worries, on regular Sundays has Masses in English and Spanish, and does indeed accommodate the Irish community on special occasions. Could something similar not be done for Holy Ghost?
Fr. Serge
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#336389 - 11/03/09 01:02 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 492
Loc: just south of nowhere
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Demography is destiny. I suppose we could have some sort of forced resettlement of the Greek Catholics from their comfortable suburbs and erect state-owned industries to keep them employed, but the sad fact is Cleveland is--and has been for some time--a dying city losing population at a rate approaching 1-3% per year. No people, no Church. Demography is our destiny?!?!?!?! Why isn't evangelization our destiny?!?!?!?! Or is that crazy talk? Monomakh
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#336390 - 11/03/09 01:41 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Monomakh]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6013
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Let me put it to you this way:
You can go to Antarctica, and evangelize with all the fervor of the Apostle Paul himself, but unless there is a canon that allows you to baptize penguins, the size of your church will be circumscribed by the (small) number of people on that continent.
Similarly, you can have the most marvelous outreach program in the world, you can have gifted preachers, but in a dying city with a shrinking population and churches located in areas far from the communities they were meant to serve, your success will be limited. A city of less than 2 million people has need of fewer churches than one that has a population of 2.5 million people. The people who move tend to be young adults with families, who are the lifeblood of any parish. The people who remain are mainly older people who have or are about to retire. That's the story of Cleveland, where the median age is now 37 years. Older populations are less economically well off and lack the physical ability to do many of the things a parish must in order to grow.
When you are also dealing with a church whose core believers come from a specific community and that community moves away so that few of its members can or will make the long journey to church, it is almost impossible to maintain the critical mass that is needed to do the mundane stuff like pay the utility bills, fix the roof, maintain the exterior, etc.
Consider that Holy Ghost, like a lot of other parishes of its day, were built in the middle of an ethnic neighborhood and was sized accordingly. However, the people moved, the neighborhood changed, and the building is no longer sustainable.
That does not mean that it should be razed (I doubt that it can, historic preservation codes being what they are), but it does mean unless someone has some very deep pockets, it will never function as a parish church again--unless you can think of some way to get an Eastern European community to move back to the neighborhood. You need to maintain that ethnic core if you want to build up a parish that appeals to a wider group of people. After all, who else will be the bearers and transmitters of the Tradition? Even in new parishes that sprang up in non-traditional areas such as the south, the southwest and the far west, there was always a nucleus of ethnics willing to do the hard work of getting the parish up and running.
Those people used to live in places like Cleveland. Now they live elsewhere, and the Church's center of gravity is shifting.
In places where the population is growing, the Church will grow. In places where the population is shrinking, the Church will shrink. No people, no church. If you think differently, please do try starting a new parish, or reviving an old one, in a moribund rust-belt city center.
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#336392 - 11/03/09 01:57 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
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Look at the situation of St. Boniface in Chicago. That page has links to pictures in Flickr that show the building has basically been left to fall apart.
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#336408 - 11/03/09 06:30 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Etnick]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6013
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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One problem is the Metropolia keeps lying to itself about its membership numbers. The parish rolls are a bad joke, retaining the names of people who have long since moved away or regularly attend the RC parish down the street, or who have just dropped out. The worst are the people who move, register at another parish, and thus are double-counted. This gives Their Graces a warm fuzzy feeling that things are better than they are. The only way to rectify the situation would be actually counting the number of people who show up for three or four consecutive Sundays not including any feast days, then averaging the total and aggregating over all the parishes and missions. I bet the results would cause a few bishops to wet their riassas.
In totally unrelated news, Epiphany of Our Lord in Annandale just signed a contract to break ground on a new church with space for almost 300 people. Unfortunately, a covert check of the attendance log shows they haven't been bringing in half that many people for more than a year. Sic transit gloria, and all that. . . Even in my day, though, the parish roll at Epiphany was almost as accurate as the voting registration rolls on the South Side of Chicago. If I remember correctly, there were nominally about 900 people on the baptismal role, of whom roughly half still lived in Northern Virginia, of whom about 250-300 would regularly attend Liturgy. The new church was scaled on that basis, but that was before the RDL exodus.
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#336428 - 11/04/09 01:59 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: John K]
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Global Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
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I just hope that the marvelous screen ends up --intact-- in another church. To see the iconostasis of which John speaks, see here - the Directory page, which I haven't yet converted to an historical entry. Many years, Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#336445 - 11/04/09 09:00 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Monomakh]
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Junior Member
Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Appalachians
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Evangelization... sorry, need to snicker a little.
In short, over the years we've been told by "those in the know"...
-- We don't evangelize to the Orthodox. But if they do want to be "Catholic," they need to attend their respective sister Catholic Chuch. (If you are Russian Orthodox, then you have to go to a Russian Catholic church, etc.) -- We don't evangelize to RCs. Their clergy doesn't like that.
-- BUT, we can evangelize to Eastern Catholics. However, they need to be of our Church. Other ECs must go to the Church in which they were baptized, or that the father belonged, or...???
-- We can also evangelize to Protestants, but if they want to convert, they must first swim the Tiber as they are "western." LATER, they can make the trip to Constantinople.
-- And we can evangelize to the unchurched, but there's that becoming an RC thing first.
-- And if the person is from a "mixed" marriage, God help you! And if there are children involved... God help you more!
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#336448 - 11/04/09 09:38 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Maverich]
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Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
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-- We don't evangelize to the Orthodox... -- We don't evangelize to RCs...
That's good, since theoretically both those groups have received the gospel already.
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#336458 - 11/04/09 11:50 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: AMM]
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Junior Member
Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 14
Loc: Appalachians
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-- We don't evangelize to the Orthodox... -- We don't evangelize to RCs...
That's good, since theoretically both those groups have received the gospel already. Yes, that is good... kind of. The reference here should have been to those who RCs and EOs who have fallen away from the Church, especially in those instances of mixed marriages (EO/RC) where one or both individuals have not been attending either Church. They usually show up on our doorstep when they need a child baptized.
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#336461 - 11/04/09 12:41 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Maverich]
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Member
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
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That's not evangelism either.
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#336467 - 11/04/09 01:58 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: AMM]
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Member
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
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of the last several adults chrismated, all of them are former protestants. Accepted directly into the Ruthenian Church. No problem. We've one couple coming in from paganism.
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#336520 - 11/05/09 01:04 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 492
Loc: just south of nowhere
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Let me put it to you this way:
You can go to Antarctica, and evangelize with all the fervor of the Apostle Paul himself, but unless there is a canon that allows you to baptize penguins, the size of your church will be circumscribed by the (small) number of people on that continent.
Similarly, you can have the most marvelous outreach program in the world, you can have gifted preachers, but in a dying city with a shrinking population and churches located in areas far from the communities they were meant to serve, your success will be limited. A city of less than 2 million people has need of fewer churches than one that has a population of 2.5 million people. The people who move tend to be young adults with families, who are the lifeblood of any parish. The people who remain are mainly older people who have or are about to retire. That's the story of Cleveland, where the median age is now 37 years. Older populations are less economically well off and lack the physical ability to do many of the things a parish must in order to grow.
When you are also dealing with a church whose core believers come from a specific community and that community moves away so that few of its members can or will make the long journey to church, it is almost impossible to maintain the critical mass that is needed to do the mundane stuff like pay the utility bills, fix the roof, maintain the exterior, etc.
Consider that Holy Ghost, like a lot of other parishes of its day, were built in the middle of an ethnic neighborhood and was sized accordingly. However, the people moved, the neighborhood changed, and the building is no longer sustainable.
That does not mean that it should be razed (I doubt that it can, historic preservation codes being what they are), but it does mean unless someone has some very deep pockets, it will never function as a parish church again--unless you can think of some way to get an Eastern European community to move back to the neighborhood. You need to maintain that ethnic core if you want to build up a parish that appeals to a wider group of people. After all, who else will be the bearers and transmitters of the Tradition? Even in new parishes that sprang up in non-traditional areas such as the south, the southwest and the far west, there was always a nucleus of ethnics willing to do the hard work of getting the parish up and running.
Those people used to live in places like Cleveland. Now they live elsewhere, and the Church's center of gravity is shifting.
In places where the population is growing, the Church will grow. In places where the population is shrinking, the Church will shrink. No people, no church. If you think differently, please do try starting a new parish, or reviving an old one, in a moribund rust-belt city center. Despite similarities in the climates during the Winter, Cleveland is not anything like Antarctica for crying out loud. Has it lost people, yes. But the city itself still has 400,000+ and the metropolitan area has a couple to a few million depending on your definition of 'metropolitan'. To insinuate that there is no one to evangelize to is ludicrious. I am very very glad that Sts. Cyril and Methodius didn't share your thoughts on evangelization. St. Francis Xavier thought differently as well, and St. Paul might disagree too. Monomakh
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#336522 - 11/05/09 01:34 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Monomakh]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6013
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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There are people to evangelize--just fewer and fewer of them every day. Most of your people do not live where your older churches are located. You need a nucleus of committed faithful not only to evangelize, but just to keep the parish running.
Comparisons with Saints Cyril and Methodius are invidious and inappropriate. They were moving into virgin territory, and did not have any infrastructure to maintain. it also helps if you can get the Prince of Great Moravia to sponsor and fund your mission, and then order his people to march down to the nearest river for baptism.
Similarly, Saint Paul was starting anew--he refused to plow in another man's field--and all he needed to evangelize was a place for people to hear his voice.
Now, if you accept that standard, then you shouldn't be too worried about losing buildings, because they are just things of this world. You could sell them all, then take the proceeds and put it into missionary activities. But, if you are going to insist on keeping the White Elephants, then own up to the reality of what they cost you. Nothing comes for free. With the building comes a commitment to evangelization in a specific neighborhood, which might not be conducive to your brand of evangelization. Better to go to a fresh field, and sow new seeds.
By the way, if anything, I understated the rate at which Cleveland and its metropolitan area is shrinking. The pace seems to have accelerated since the last study was done using 2006 data.
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#336543 - 11/05/09 06:47 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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Well, one might (just as an example) try to construct a mailing list and print a directory of former parishioners who have moved away and now go to Church in another parish. I suspect that this would have two results:
a) the people would be grateful, because many will have lost touch with friends, or even relatives, and will like to be in touch with them again, ad
b) a not-too-blatant fund appeal to keep Holy Ghost functioning will reach a favorable response.
This is only one of many techniques; it can be done.
Fr. Serge
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#336544 - 11/05/09 06:49 PM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6013
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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It might work. But what would be the function of the church? Certainly, with only a handful of regular worshipers it could not be a parish. Perhaps it can be made into a shrine or pilgrimage site, or a pro-Cathedral, which would not require a regular pastor.
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#336577 - 11/06/09 05:08 AM
Re: Holy Ghost Church in Cleveland closes
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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Knowing as I do neither the Church nor the vicinity I can't offer an informed opinion of how the Church might serve in the future. But that's not likely to be an insoluble problem.
Fr. Serge
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