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#336596 - 11/06/09 01:05 PM Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed
Our Lady's slave Offline
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Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6077
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
Opponents of the modern liturgy could use a history lesson, says this scholar of the church's prayer. Overall, the liturgical reform has been a great success.
If any scholar could claim a ring-side seat to the liturgical reform of the 20th century, it would have to be Father Robert Taft, S.J. Taft recalls being surprised when he arrived in Europe in 1964 to see liturgical change already well underway. "Worker priests in Western Europe were celebrating the liturgy in the vernacular because it was the only way to come into contact with the de-Christianized workers there," he says. "The notion of celebrating the liturgy for them in Latin was simply absurd.".........

...........
Full article here

Mass instruction is needed

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#336597 - 11/06/09 01:24 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Our Lady's slave]
Prester John Offline
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Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 218
Loc: USA
Vernacular wasn't the big problem, I think.

Changing the whole darn liturgy was - and is.

I would have loved to experience a Tridentine Liturgy in English - and translation wasn't a problem as the missal had one side in Latin, one in English already.

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#336600 - 11/06/09 01:41 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Prester John]
Administrator Offline

John
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Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5900
Loc: Virginia
I agree with Father John. I've offered my two cents on this numerous times. I would have simply taken the texts from the 'altar server' and given them back to the people, and then slowly move to the vernacular while keeping Latin as a standard. Using both Gregorian chant and allowing new, simpler chant to develop naturally. Let's not forget that because of he radicalness of the change up to 1/3 of Latin Catholics walked away, with many of them never really returning except as "Christmas and Easter Catholics". [See this link.]

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#336606 - 11/06/09 02:39 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Administrator]
theophan Offline
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Registered: 11/27/02
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Father John and John:

They wouldn't even have had to go too far to get the whole liturgical cycle in English. I met an Anglican priest in the mid-1960s who used the Anglican Missal: an English translation of the entire Latin Missal used by Rome until 1962 when Pope John XXIII of blessed memory issued the last minor reforms to it. I had a chance to borrow one some years ago and it was almost laid out in the exact way--page by page--that the Latin altar missal was arranged. It was in 1928 English and the "thees" and thous" might have needed to be updated, but there it was page by page and feast by feast.

It's only since the liturgical terrorists--sorry, my poor opinion--began to work together across Church and eccelsial communities that this particular gem has been banned in the Anglican Church (so I'm told by my friend, now retired).

Oh well . . .

BOB

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#336611 - 11/06/09 03:39 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: theophan]
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Registered: 08/10/02
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Even I would be totally fine with the Traditional Rites (not just the Holy Mass) (primarily) in English. The sense of the sacred, and respect to our Tradition, would still be intact.

From all the numbers I've ever seen, the liturgical "reform" has been a miserable failure.

Alexis

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#336621 - 11/06/09 06:01 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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Registered: 03/16/06
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This is where I have strong disagreement with Fr. Taft. He thinks the whole Bugnini-engineered reform in the West was wonderful, and has stated his support for Bishop Donald Trautman of Erie,Pa., with his penchant for "inclusive" language in the Liturgy (one priest, a well known poster on this forum, has referred to the latter bishop as "Traut-person" )sick

Dn. Robert

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#336622 - 11/06/09 06:09 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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P.S.

The late Monsignor William Smith, who was chairman of the Moral Theology Dept., and Academic Dean at St. Joseph's Seminary in Dunwoodie, NY (RC Archdiocese of New York), once stated in a speech which I attended, that the only thing Catholic about U.S. Catholic is the name!

Dn. Robert


Edited by Deacon Robert Behrens (11/06/09 06:10 PM)
Edit Reason: spacing

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#336624 - 11/06/09 06:52 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
AMM Offline
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
God save us from the reformers.

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#336625 - 11/06/09 06:56 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
I'll quote Father Taft on this one. "This is what is known in the vernacular as slander." Your remarks and the respondents above are unfounded. The liturgical reform was not engineered by Bugnini, but came as the result of many years of liturgical scholarship. It has been embraced by the Bishops of Rome since Pope Paul VI and has been enthusiastically embraced by the vast majority of bishops of the Latin church, not to mention millions of faithful for over forty years. The fact is, as Father Taft notes, the reforms and the council that spawned them have been received by the Latin church. Is not that the mark of acceptance? No apologies needed. People leave the Church for many reasons, as once did I. I left from the weakness of my faith, and I suspect so do most. Liturgical abuse is another issue, but on this one good Father Taft is absolutely correct.

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#336628 - 11/06/09 07:44 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
The liturgical reform was not engineered by Bugnini, but came as the result of many years of liturgical scholarship. It has been embraced by the Bishops of Rome since Pope Paul VI and has been enthusiastically embraced by the vast majority of bishops of the Latin church, not to mention millions of faithful for over forty years.


A number of people, among whom would be the liturgist Msgr Klaus Gamber, beg to disagree. Monsignor Gamber's book is extremely well documented, and, as we say in my business, "you can't argue with actuals". One of those actuals was the Ordo Paulus VI was developed largely in secret by what has been described as "conclaves of experts" (within which Bugnini was one of the leading forces), without much regard for the opinion of the wider Church.

As for the reception of the bishops being some sort of good housekeeping seal of approval, I recommend reading Sacrosanctum concilium on the liturgical duties and obligations of the bishop, which are spelled out in painful detail. Why was that necessary? Because the bishops were disregarding their duties and shirking their obligations. It is an unpleasant truth that prior to Vatican II, the study of liturgy was actively discouraged in the Latin Church, and those who did so were generally regarded as peculiar people not to be trusted.

The bishops of the Latin Church, therefore, generally had one thing in common: their abysmal ignorance of liturgy, liturgical history, liturgical development and liturgical theology. Which makes it all the more ironic that one should hail the acceptance of the product of the conclaves of experts by men utterly unqualified to judge their work as the benchmark of success.

It's significant, I think, that many of the surviving members of the liturgical movement ended up denouncing what was done in their name. Liturgical malpractice at best, fraud at worst.

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#336631 - 11/06/09 07:57 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
Originally Posted By: Utroque
I'll quote Father Taft on this one. "This is what is known in the vernacular as slander." Your remarks and the respondents above are unfounded. The liturgical reform was not engineered by Bugnini, but came as the result of many years of liturgical scholarship. It has been embraced by the Bishops of Rome since Pope Paul VI and has been enthusiastically embraced by the vast majority of bishops of the Latin church, not to mention millions of faithful for over forty years. The fact is, as Father Taft notes, the reforms and the council that spawned them have been received by the Latin church. Is not that the mark of acceptance? No apologies needed. People leave the Church for many reasons, as once did I. I left from the weakness of my faith, and I suspect so do most. Liturgical abuse is another issue, but on this one good Father Taft is absolutely correct.


Bugnini was the author of the Novus Ordo Missae. The late Michael Davies, a Welshman and a convert from Anglicanism closely associated with the Traditionalist movement in the Roman Church, wrote an excellent trilogy on the liturgical "Reform" in the West (Cranmer's Godly Order, Pope John's Council, and Pope Paul’s New Mass). In these books, he documents quite thoroughly, that if you remove everything from the Old Rite that is objectionable theologically to Protestants, what you are left with is the Novus Ordo Missae. Per Mr. Davies, the Novus Ordo was Bugnini's "baby". He may have ingested a lot of the ideas which were floating around at the time, but, per Mr. Davies, he, with the input of Protestant consultants, put together the text. When the text of the Novus Ordo was first presented for review by certain members of the Papal curia, including the late Cardinal Ottaviani (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith), it was found to be seriously lacking. I refer you to the text of the "Ottaviani Intervention" for these criticisms. Despite the serious criticisms of the Novus Ordo text, both for what was removed, and for its ambiguities, it was promulgated by Pope Paul VI. When it was promulgated, Bugnini was heard to boast "we have conquered the Roman Church". Later on, per Mr. Davies, an Italian writer by the name of Tito Casini went to Paul VI with pictoral evidence of Bugnini's membership in Freemasonry. Subsequently, Bugnini was stripped of his role as head of the Congregation for Divine Worship, and given the post of Nuncio to Iran. While Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo, he never abrogated the Old Rite (this assertion of mine was recently confirmed by Pope Benedict XVI), now known as the "Extraordinary Form", although many bishops acted as if it had been abrogated. I am formerly of the Latin Rite. IMHO, the Roman Rite would have been better off if they had simply translated the Mass of Tradition into vernacular languages (without inclusive language, please). As to the accusation of "slander", Mr. Davies was very meticulous about "getting the story right". Having met him on numerous occassions, I can affirm that he would never have said what he did if he could not back it up.

Dn. Robert


Edited by Deacon Robert Behrens (11/06/09 08:01 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#336632 - 11/06/09 08:42 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
Deacon, that's hogwash. The Novus Ordo, whatever it's source, has been embraced by the vast majority in the Latin church including the present Holy Father. It is the Ordinary form of worship in the Latin church and the people love and comprehend it. I'm
confident it will organically develop, with love and devotion, become more beautiful, and flourish. Enough said.

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#336633 - 11/06/09 08:51 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
Are you really an historian? The popes, the bishops of the Latin church, Father Taft and I, your humble servant, are all fools then.

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#336634 - 11/06/09 09:05 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
The Novus Ordo, whatever it's source, has been embraced by the vast majority in the Latin church including the present Holy Father.


"Everybody's doing it" doesn't seem like much of an argument. After all, wasn't that the defense of the Tridentine Rite back in 1965? Was it sufficient then? If not, why would it be sufficient now?

In any case, even Pope Benedict has leveled some fairly strong criticism of the Novus Ordo, going so far as to write a book about it. It was clear, back in the 1960s, that there were serious problems with the Tridentine rite, a product of its formulation in the midst of the counter-reformation and codification of a set of medieval deformations of the patristic understanding of liturgy. Similarly, the Novus Ordo is also deeply flawed, a product of the time in which it was composed, and the assumptions that governed those responsible for composing it.

It is noteworthy that those who compiled both the Tridentine and the Novus Ordo thought they were restoring the Roman rite to its "pristine purity"--and that both failed. The opportunity still remains to fulfill the mandate, but partisans of both forms don't seem too interested in going down that road. Too much invested, I suppose.

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#336636 - 11/06/09 09:57 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
I find it difficult to believe that one who has so vehemently argued on this forum that acceptance by the Church is a hallmark of orthodoxy should repudiate the acceptance of the Novus Ordo by the vast majority in the Latin church as suspect. Father Taft has not argued that it is perfect, nor do I, but it is an authentic development of the Roman liturgy in its spirit and essential structure. What is more,it has returned the liturgy to the people to whom it belongs.

"Everybody's doing it". I think you should give the community of faithful a little more credence than that. The Church is not the local high school.

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#336643 - 11/07/09 01:39 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Jakub. Offline
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4199
Loc: Palmdale, California
Cardinal Ratzinger on the Novus Ordo: “After the Council… in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”.

I trust this statement...

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#336648 - 11/07/09 07:25 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Jakub.]
Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
Jessup B.C. Deacon
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Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
Originally Posted By: Jakub.
Cardinal Ratzinger on the Novus Ordo: “After the Council… in place of the liturgy as the fruit of organic development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it, as in a manufacturing process, with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product”.

I trust this statement...


Bingo! Novus Ordo was not the fruit of organic development. It was the work of a committee, which included Protestant consultants. Bugnini at first denied that there was Protestant input, but those advisers later went public and affirmed their roles! I don't deny the validity of Novus Ordo, but IMHO, it was a step in the wrong direction by the Western Church, which is only now beginning to return to Tradition. This present Pope is the right hierarch for this time period. He speaks of the whole "Progressivist" crowd in the Western Church, including their liturgical thinking, as having proceeded from a "hermeneutic of rupture" with the past, whereas there should be a "hermeneutic of continuity". This is why Benedict has liberalized usage of the Old Rite, so that it can "inform" celebrations of the "ordinary form" (which I find, in many places, at present, to be quite "ordinary").

Dn Robert

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#336649 - 11/07/09 07:30 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
StuartK Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
I find it difficult to believe that one who has so vehemently argued on this forum that acceptance by the Church is a hallmark of orthodoxy should repudiate the acceptance of the Novus Ordo by the vast majority in the Latin church as suspect.

Consider that for forty years the faithful were denied any alternative to the Novus Ordo. That's an entire generation that grew up thinking that it was the one and only Mass. Adherents of the Tridentine Mass were marginalized at best, frequently demonized by their own bishops as either reactionaries or closet schismatics. When forced to allow celebration of the Tridentine, many bishops ensured it was only permitted at odd times and in inconvenient locations.

Given that free choice was not permitted, that the faithful were given no voice at all in the matter, it is hard to say that there was any real reception involved. Hobson's Choice is not real conciliarity.

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#336652 - 11/07/09 10:07 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
MarkosC Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 515
Loc: Melkite Greek Catholic Church
The article posted seems like a rehash -indeed a cut-and-paste - of much of Father Taft has previously said.

I basically agree with all of his points. A few things that might make his points easier to swallow:

- read the whole article. wink

- remember he considers the liturgical reforms instituted by Pope St. Pius X very successful [think about that one for a second...]

- in his works, it's abundantly clear that Father Taft grew up with the "Tridentine" mass, and based on my reading of his work I think knows it as well as anyone out there. His thoughts about are marred by the abuses which took place then.

- on the note of abuses, he doesn't deny them. However, I'd agree with him: the abuses came because various people at the local level wanted them, not because Rome wanted them.

I'd go further: I think the Latin church, especially at the parish level, has lost its sense of what liturgy is and that the abuses we have would have taken place even if the "old mass" was kept, especially if the bishops replaced the books of the 1950s with the musical schlock that they generally have now. This didn't suddenly happen in the 60s. Every priest and liturgical reformer of the 60s and 70s grew up with the "old Mass", and I've heard of plenty of incorrect thinking about the Mass that was prevalent at the time (a book on Catholicism by Yaroslav Pelikan from the late 1950s is most illuminating on this point).

- Gregorian chant, in its current form, was made in the late 1800s and promulgated by Pope St. Pius X in the early 1900s (1905 I believe - I used to have that edition of the Gradule Romanum). Before, the existing chant book of record allegedly had many problems, and the historians tell us that nobody used it anyway - they either had silent "low" masses, organ masses, poor to middling choral massses, or grandiose classical music concerts. (the period of 1600-1900 was the period where "classical" music became in vogue).

As much as I dislike much of the music used these days, liturgically they're not any worse than much of what came in the past several hundred years, even if Mozart, Schubert and the like are light years better composers than the Catholic song-writers of the 70s. In both case, music in the liturgy becomes a concert-piece made by a musically competent elite intended to stir pious feelings in the people.




Anyway, I do have to agree with his fundamental point: a liturgy where the people assembled have a minimal role, where (at best) a choir/orchestra gives a performance and a clergyman mostly does his own thing, with the assembled being decidedly optional. Even though I sang in the schola of my local indult parish for several years, overall I prefer the 1970 Roman Missal over the 1962 missal. But only as long as everything else stays the same.....

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#336656 - 11/07/09 12:21 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
Believe me, Stuart, by 1963 my generation was longing for an alternative to the Tridentine Mass. We had no alternative either, but accepted, in faith, gladly what we had. The Novus Ordo was a big relief, and has born fruit. The popes have acknowledged that it has, and, while not perfect, it remains the standard of worship in the Latin church. The adherents of the Tridentine form have had the support of those same popes, and can now use this form unimpeded, though some bishops have found this Vatican "bullying". I am very happy that these people find solace and comfort in these rites. They are available every Sunday here in Maine at the cathedral in Portland at a very convenient time. A handful of people attend in Maine's largest city. They are not marginalized, but they are on the margin.

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#336662 - 11/07/09 01:25 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
StuartK Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
Believe me, Stuart, by 1963 my generation was longing for an alternative to the Tridentine Mass. We had no alternative either, but accepted, in faith, gladly what we had.


Pay, pray and obey, that's the way to go!

Quote:
The Novus Ordo was a big relief, and has born fruit.


Really? Where are all those missing Catholics, then?

Quote:
The adherents of the Tridentine form have had the support of those same popes, and can now use this form unimpeded, though some bishops have found this Vatican "bullying". I am very happy that these people find solace and comfort in these rites. They are available every Sunday here in Maine at the cathedral in Portland at a very convenient time. A handful of people attend in Maine's largest city. They are not marginalized, but they are on the margin.


That's not the point. The real point is neither liturgy is an organic development of the authentic Latin Tradition, both have serious problems, and nobody seems very interested in fixing them. By the way, your attitude towards those who prefer the Tridentine rite sounds really condescending. You might consider that those people hear it in that way, too.

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#336664 - 11/07/09 01:45 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Monomakh Offline
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Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 492
Loc: just south of nowhere
Originally Posted By: Utroque
Believe me, Stuart, by 1963 my generation was longing for an alternative to the Tridentine Mass. We had no alternative either, but accepted, in faith, gladly what we had. The Novus Ordo was a big relief, and has born fruit. The popes have acknowledged that it has, and, while not perfect, it remains the standard of worship in the Latin church. The adherents of the Tridentine form have had the support of those same popes, and can now use this form unimpeded, though some bishops have found this Vatican "bullying". I am very happy that these people find solace and comfort in these rites. They are available every Sunday here in Maine at the cathedral in Portland at a very convenient time. A handful of people attend in Maine's largest city. They are not marginalized, but they are on the margin.


Yeah the Novus Ordo has born fruite alright, its born fruit for protestants and other denominations. I can't tell you how many former Catholics that I meet day in and out. This can't possibly be what you mean.

Where exactly are these fruits? Is Cardinal Mahoney and the lunancy that goes on in his dioscese part of these fruits? Maybe its the fact that the local Catholic schools here don't have one single nun for a teacher because the vocations for nuns have been destroyed? Is that the fruits?

Monomakh

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#336665 - 11/07/09 02:11 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Jakub. Offline
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4199
Loc: Palmdale, California
Here is the complete document of + Pope Paul VI regarding the propagation of the new liturgy, November 1969...one can reread it several times and come away with different thoughts and opinions...



http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

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#336666 - 11/07/09 02:47 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Jakub.]
aramis Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
For all his criticism of it, HH Benedict has refused to abrogate the Ordinary Form, and has in fact declared it the ordinary form, and has implied that calling it the "Novus Ordo" is inappropriate.

So the mass promulgated by Pp. Paul VI, and again by JP II (twice with minor corrections), is the normative mass. The Trent liturgy is still an extraordinary form, not the normative form.

Theologically, the Trent liturgy is no less troubled, just in different ways: The people as audience, the lack of explicit post-narrative epiclesis, the lack of instructive content.
Abuse-wise, people forget how abused the Trent missal was.

The only viable issue, really, is the method of development. And that, even, is arguable, since all the changes in the actual text of the mass as promulgated by Pp. Paul VI were almost all included in the bishops' requests.

Note that CITH, that was NOT in the mass of Pp. Paul VI. (But it was and is in the Chaldean, Maronite, and Armenian praxis...) It was a later, and very organic, accretion.

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#336668 - 11/07/09 04:08 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: aramis]
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4636
Loc: Georgia
Not wanting to be seen as taking a pot-shot at Utroque, the fact that he/she gives away his/her age by noting that "in 1963 my generation wanted something different" makes the point of view less surprising. From what I've found, and what studies tend to show, is that people old enough to "want" anything in 1963 are generally much more liturgically liberal than those, such as myself, who are under 40-50.

Alexis

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#336670 - 11/07/09 04:41 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
StuartK Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
Theologically, the Trent liturgy is no less troubled, just in different ways: The people as audience, the lack of explicit post-narrative epiclesis, the lack of instructive content.
Abuse-wise, people forget how abused the Trent missal was.



Why is the lack of an explicit post-narrative epiclesis a problem? Is the entire lack of an institution narrative in the Anaphora of Addai and Mari also a problem? Fact is, the Roman Canon never had an epiclesis, so what? The entire canon is itself a single consecratory prayer, and the focus on this moment or that moment is not patristic, but a second millennium innovation deriving from scholastic theology and the Orthodox reaction to it.

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#336671 - 11/07/09 04:50 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
"Pray, pay and obey, that's the way to go!"

Thanks. Who's condescending?

"Where have all the Catholics gone?

Asia, Africa and...ah...Maine.

I think the cited article by Father Taft makes the point, and a very good one. That's my point.

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#336672 - 11/07/09 06:08 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
AMM Offline
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
Communion in hand is wrong. Lay people distributing communion is wrong. Priests facing west for the consecration is most definitely wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

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#336673 - 11/07/09 06:26 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: AMM]
Apotheoun Offline
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Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 2358
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Dr. Lauren Pristas has written some wonderful essays on the reform of the Roman Church's liturgy, and some of her articles are linked at her faculty webpage.

Dr. Lauren Pristas - Caldwell College

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#336674 - 11/07/09 06:53 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Administrator Offline

John
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5900
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Utroque
I think the cited article by Father Taft makes the point, and a very good one. That's my point.

I agree that Father Taft identifies some of the major issues with the Mass of the John XXII Missal. But each of the issues he speaks to could have been addressed with an inorganic 'New Mass by a Creative Committee':

-Giving the prayers formerly said by the altar server back to the people.

-The possibility of a sung Liturgy (not recited, and with music that is not as difficult as Gregorian chant or Mozart multi-voice needing choirs).

-The vernacular.

-Etc.

Again, lots could have been done to allow organic development over time without chasing so many people away (I would not want to be those bishops on Judgment Day!). A new Mass was not required or even desired. Liturgical renewal was in full force for an entire generation before Vatican II and was making organic progress. Had the suggestions I put forth been followed and there have been even more openness to organic development a very lot would have happened, but with the silliness of "Four Songs and a Mass" that goes on in many places.

Father Taft says: After Vatican II some people unfortunately thought that they had to be creative. As I've said more than once, I have never understood why people who have never manifested the slightest creativity in any other aspect of their human existence all of the sudden think they're Shakespeare or Mozart when it comes to the liturgy. That's sheer arrogance.

But yet he does not condemn the creativity of the committee that created the Novus Ordo. Possibly because he likes that type of creativity?

Most of the article is not new, and he has said the same thing numerous times before.

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#336675 - 11/07/09 07:02 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Administrator]
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4636
Loc: Georgia
"Theologically, the Trent liturgy is no less troubled, just in different ways: The people as audience, the lack of explicit post-narrative epiclesis, the lack of instructive content. Abuse-wise, people forget how abused the Trent missal was."

The people aren't just an audience in the Traditional Mass. There's been a lot of discussion about just what "active participation" is. Just because people are chanting or saying things (which, preferably, they should be doing of course), doesn't mean they're not participating.

Alexis

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#336676 - 11/07/09 07:12 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Administrator]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
Communion in hand is wrong. Lay people distributing communion is wrong. Priests facing west for the consecration is most definitely wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.


I think it is hard to deny that receiving the Body of Christ in the hand was indeed the original manner in which communion was distributed. It is, in short, the oldest stratum of the Christian Tradition, predating all other usage, including that of placing the Body on the tongue of the faithful, or the distribution of both the Body and Blood from the Chalice using a spoon. You can hardly call it "wrong", though you might say that it was badly implemented, with improper catechesis. The practice of the early Church undoubtedly resembled that by which the faithful receive the Antidoron in the Byzantine Tradition, with the the right hand placed palm up in the left hand. In fact, Cyril of Jerusalem describes the reception of communion in just those terms.

As to the distribution of the Eucharist by the laity, it was undoubtedly unnecessary and pastorally imprudent, but again, there are precedents from the early Church, when the faithful not only received in the hand, but took the blessed Sacrament home with them to eat with meals throughout the week. Gregory of Nanzianzen writes of his sister, St. Gorgonia, being stricken with an illness, but recovering when she held a particle of the consecrated Bread in her hand throughout the night.

Priests facing west to celebrate is undoubtedly an innovation that violates the letter and spirit of the Tradition, but it must be noted that certain churches, including St. Peters Basilica, were occidented rather than oriented, so when the priest was facing East, he was also facing the people. This was made unnecessary later on with the adoption of the concept of "liturgical East".

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#336677 - 11/07/09 07:13 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
Administrator Offline

John
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Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 5900
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Logos - Alexis
"Theologically, the Trent liturgy is no less troubled, just in different ways: The people as audience, the lack of explicit post-narrative epiclesis, the lack of instructive content. Abuse-wise, people forget how abused the Trent missal was."

The people aren't just an audience in the Traditional Mass. There's been a lot of discussion about just what "active participation" is. Just because people are chanting or saying things (which, preferably, they should be doing of course), doesn't mean they're not participating.

Alexis

Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) speaks to a proper understanding of active participation regarding a divine silence in his book "The Spirit of the Liturgy". I've quoted it before at length (and won't do so here) but I think he would agree with Father Taft that praying other prayers would be far from the ideal, and something that needs to be corrected. But there is nothing wrong with meditative silence, and the ideal would be for the people to sing the parts that really belong to them.

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#336678 - 11/07/09 07:28 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Administrator]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
The people aren't just an audience in the Traditional Mass. There's been a lot of discussion about just what "active participation" is. Just because people are chanting or saying things (which, preferably, they should be doing of course), doesn't mean they're not participating.


The rubrics indicate that only the words uttered by the celebrant are efficacious. The faithful are there as witnesses to what he does, but in fact, they don't even have to be there at all, since the Tridentine rite enshrined and perpetuated the medieval abuse of "private Mass". Hence, for those of us old enough to remember, the colloquial descriptions of what was going on: "The priest said Mass", and "The people heard Mass".

That was not--and is not--full and active participation as it was understood in the patristic era. Leitourgia = the work of the people. All the people, not just the guy at the altar. Liturgy, East and West alike, was and should remain a dialogue of prayer between the celebrant and the congregation, a divine drama in which both celebrant and people are the actors, and God is the audience.

You can say a lot of things about the Tridentine rite, but you cannot say what the people did was "full and active cooperation"

As for the commonplace abuses of the Tridentine era, Father Serge wrote about them at length in an excellent article in Eastern Churches Journal.

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#336680 - 11/07/09 09:21 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
AMM Offline
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
The 16th century reformers thought they were re-creating the early church. Reforms always come about as bringing back practices of the early church. This is how the tradition of the church is destroyed, it is in the name of the "early church". Liturgical reform is no different.

Communion in hand is wrong because the weight of tradition tells us so. The de-sacralization of the liturgy and the destruction of piety is simply the evidence that this is so.


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#336681 - 11/07/09 09:36 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Way back in 1999, I wrote a review of Father Serge Kelleher's essay, "Whatever Happened to the Liturgical Movement (A View From the East)" as it appeared in Eastern Churches Journal, Summer 1998. This originally had been presented at the "Beyond the Prosaic Conference", sponsored by the Center for Faith and Culture, Westminster College, Oxford, the proceedings of which were later published as Beyond the Prosaic: Renewing the Liturgical Movement, Stratford Coldecott, ed., T&T Clark (Einburgh, Scotland) 1998. Here is that review:

Quote:
Fr. Serge begins with a quote from Sacrosanctum Concillium, that "the full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else", and then he notes that "Every conceivable device, every trivialization of the Sacred Mysteries, has been justicied in the name of 'active participation'". He quotes Prof. Mark Searle's devastating one-line put-down of the Novus Ordo in that regard: "Rarely was their an atmostphere of deeply prayerful involvement", and Fr. Serge notes that "Any further criticism of the Novus Ordo might even be superfluous. Participatio actuoso in the sacred Liturgy means deeply prayerful involvement; any so-called 'active participation' in the liturgy in the absence of deeply prayerful involvement is nonsense and blasphemy".

Turning to the origins of the Novus Ordo, Fr. Serge reviews the fundamental principles of the liturgical movement prior to Vatican II, in order to show that the founders and leaders of the movement (Baumstarck, Bott, Casel, Congar, Danielou, Gamber, Herwegen, Jungmann, and Louis Bouyer) would not (indeed, did not) set out to dismantle the Latin liturgical tradition, nor to put in its place so flawed a liturgy as the Novus Ordo. What were those
principles? He enumerates nine in all:

1. Fidelity to the Church. Fr. Serge (who knew many of these man personally), observes that they were people who "loved the Church above everything except God Himself--and since they found God and love God in the Church, which is the Body of Christ, they found no reason to declare such an exception". For them, there was no liturgical movement apart from the Church, "because, in the happy phrase of St. Pius X, liturgy is the Church's
own piety".

2. Reverence for the Liturgy. Fr. Serge quotes one of the few living members of the preconcilliar liturgical movement, Fr. Boniface Luykx, that "the Liturgy is the dwelling place of God, to be approached with worship and awe", a belief that is demonstrated by the manner in which Luykx himself celebrates the Liturgy (he is now Abbot of the Holy Transfiguration Monastary in California).

3. Dedication to Ressourcement. Serge notes that the liturgical movement was closely linked to the patristic revival that began in the late 19th century. Leaders of the liturgical movement, he states, realized that one could only understand the liturgy in the context of the Holy Fathers of the Church. They supported the publication of the works of the Holy Fathers, and their translation into modern languages. And, above all, "they
taught their students the necessity of reading and studying the works of the Holy Fathers".

4. Propagation of Greater Knowledge of the Liturgy. These men wanted the Catholic faithful at every level to understand the content and meaning of the Liturgy. They promoted the publication of missals (a rarity before then) so that the faithful could actually follow the words and actions. Bi-lingual missals were actually prohibited until 1897, and the first complete Latin-English missal was not published until 1910.

5. Efforts to Promote the Divine Office. The liturgical reformers wanted to make the Divine Office an integral part of the faith of all the people, and not merely a priest's prayerbook. Thus, they promoted and published bi-lingual service books that included vespers, compline and other offices of the Hours, and ecouraged their use in parishes.

6. Appreciation of Authentic Liturgical Music. In particular, Fr. Serge notes, Gregorian Chant. Also, an attempt to restore the best in iconography and appointments for the altar and the interior of the church.

7. Profound Interest in the Eastern Churches. Most especially, the Eastern liturgies. The liturgical movement published liturgical texts, arranged for public celebrations of the Eastern Liturgies, and in general believed that there was much the West could learn from the East in this area. As a result, the leaders of the liturgical movement also became leaders of the ecumenical movement between Rome and Constantinople, which in turn led to a
fruitful cross-pollination with liturgical reformers in the East (Eliade, Gillet, Korolevskty, Popidara, and Schememann, among others).

8. Reverence for Sacred Scriptures. To support their liturgical activities, the reformers also pressed to place Biblical studies on a sound footing, recognizing that the Bible is the Book of the Church, to be read in Church.

9. Strong Monastic Foundation. Monastaries were at the forefront of the Liturgical movement through the mid-1950s, in large part because liturgy is such a large part of the monastic vocation.

Fr. Serge Kelleher provides the following summary that should be kept in mind as we continue through the remainder of his critique of the Novus Ordo:

Quote:
One could sum up all these characteristics in a word which today might seem ironic, but is nonetheless true: the authentic Catholic liturgical movement of the twentieth century is deeply and thoroughly traditional. The aim of the liturgical movement is to know, to live, to spread the genuine orthodox Tradition of the Catholic Church. This could be demonstrated by the writings and lives of the leaders of the liturgical movement; no one who is familiar with them would dispute it.


This leads Fr. Serge to begin an inquiry into what went wrong. He notes that the great leaders of the liturgical movement believed that in Sacrosanctum Concillium the Church had adopted their guiding princples wholesale. Why then, he asks, do we find, thirty years later, that those who truly care for the genuine orthodox Tradition of the Catholic Church taking refuge in the Eastern Churches, or trying desperately to maintain the Tridentine Mass and "barring the door to anything that even reminds them of the Novus Ordo", or, in some cases, maintaining that the problem is not the Novus Ordo, but the "abuses" heaped upon it. But, Fr. Serge observes, the Novus Ordo continues to deteriorate. He quotes from the Psalms in a most appropriate passage:

Quote:
Why does thy anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture?
Remember Mount Zion, where thou hast dwelt.
Direct thy steps to the endless ruins;
The enemy has destroyed everything in the sanctuary!

Thine enemies shriek where thine assemblies used to gather;
They stuck their enemy emblems over the entrance,
Emblems we had never seen before.

At the upper entrance, they hacked the wooden trellis with axes.
And then all its carved wood they broke down with hatchets and hammers.
They set the sanctuary on fire;
To the ground they desecrated the dwelling place of thy Name.
They said to themselves, "we will utterly subdue them".
They burned down every shrine in the country.


Fr. Serge notes that as early as 1966, Fr. Louis Bouyer, perhaps the greatest of all the liturgical reformers, was warning that the movement was being hijacked by people who were using its language to subvert its principles:

Already we too often observe how individual aberrations or collective daydreams succeed in spinning a web around the best orientations of conciliar authority. For all the defects in the liturgy, whether in the past or of the present, and for everything that accompanies, sustains or produces them [i.e., liturgical errors] in piety as well as in religious thought, there can be but one remedy. And this is a return to the sources, as long as it is authentic and not one that is pretended or miscarried.

By 1968, Fr. Bouyer wrote:

Quote:
There is practically no liturgy worthy of the name today in the Catholic Church. Yesterday's liturgy was hardly more than an embalmed cadaver. What people call liturgy today is hardly more than the same cadaver, decomposed.


Fr. Serge stands behind Louis Bouyer's accusation that those who purported to apply the liturgical directives of Vatican II deliverately turned their backs on the guiding principles of the liturgical movement. Writes Fr. Serge:

Quote:
Those who have claimed to 'implement' Sacrosanctum Concillium have repudiated the foundations of that document, have conceived a different inspiration, and have led the Roman Church in quite another direction from that given by the liturgical movement and ratified by the Council.


But Fr. Serge Kelleher does not look upon the pre-Conciliar Church as a liturgical Eden before the serpent of reform tempted the Church away from the true faith. No, he identifies a number of pre-Conciliar sources for the current crisis. Of these, he covers in detail no fewer than six distinct tendencies:

1. Authoritarian Clericalism. The notion that everything must be done out of obedience of the "because I said so" variety in fact breeds subservience, and not interior religious assent or genuine understanding. He notes that parish priests who heaped abuse on those advocating vernacular liturgy in 1961 could and did use exacting the same language to abuse those advocating the retention of Latin and Gregorian chant in 1968. He notes that the liturgical movement was naive in thinking that this deeply ingrained mindset would be removed by concilliar decree.

2. Idolization of Practicality. Fr. Serge notes that there is a tendancy to measure the success of the Church in concrete terms like numbers of baptisms, marriages, Mass attendance, etc., and less on the spiritual life of the faithful. He quotes a story by Fr. Alexander Schmemann, who whilst travelling with a Roman Catholic priest, happened to bring up Louis Bouyer. The Catholic priest denounced Bouyer, calling the liturgical movement a bunch of romantics with no concern for the "practical" elements of parish life. His supposed clinching argument was to invite Fr. Schmemann to his parish, where he could take a look at the parking lot. Fr. Serge observes that an overly business-like approach to the Holy Mysteries places churches in danger of becoming the sacramental equivalent of gas stations--and he doesn't doubt that Schmemann's parish priest would consider that a compliment.

3. Uneducated and Unconcerned Clergy. Serge Kelleher observes that prior to Vatican II, seminaries and religious orders actively discouraged serious study of the Liturgy. Courses "on" liturgy were actually courses on memorizing the rubrics. Louis Bouyer reports that after joining the Oratory, he was told by his superiors, "You're much too interested in things like Holy Scripture and the liturgy. Real Catholics don't attach suchimportance to those things". Recognize, please, that the Protestant stereotype of Catholic worship did indeed have some basis in truth.

Fr. Serge notes that clergy formed in that environment did not find inspiration in liturgy, or have much respect for those who did. The authors of Sacrosanctum Concillium were aware of this problem, and included strongly worded sections on the importance of teaching liturgy in the seminaries and religious houses. But, he notes, far too often those sections were ignored or subverted.

Bad as this problem was among priests, it was also damnably present in bishops. He notes that shortly after being elevated to the papacy, John XXIII pontificated at Solemn Vespers--the first time that the Bishop of Rome had done so in more than seventy five years. Francis Cardinal Spellman so disliked celebrating the Mass that he received a dispensation from Pope Pius XII "so that he never recited the Divine Office, and almost never celebrated the Eucharist (though on Christmas he would celebrate a low Mass for servicemen at a nearby military base). Cardinal Spellman, while an extreme case, was no anomaly, to the point that Sacrosanctum Concillium had to include provisions stating explicitly the duty of the bishop to lead the liturgical life of the dioceses.

4. Irreverence. Many "traditionalist" Catholics have dim or hazy memories of the pre-Conciliar Church, and seem to think that there was a much greater degree of reverence for the Mass then, than there is now. That may be the case, but Fr. Serge demonstrates that the degree of reverence then still left much to be desired. Specifically, he points to the Holy Table of the Altar. Under the pre-Vatican II rubrics, there were precise instructions for the materials, care, and positioning of the altar, but in point of fact, seldom were these implemented. Supposedly made of stone, most altars were in fact hollow wooden boxes (frequently marblized) and were, contrary to all prohibitions, often used for storage purposes.

He also points to the abuse of simultaneous services, recounting how he once visited a parish in which a Mass was in progress at the main altar, a second priest was addressing the congregation from the pulpit throughout the Mass, a third priest was distributing Holy Communion continuously at the altar rail, a marriage was taking place in one side chapel, and devotions were being held audibly in another side chapel, whilst in the midst of all this "pious chaos" several other priests attempted to hear confessions. He also notes that the Blessed Sacrament was enthroned in a monstrance on the main altar, even though the rubrics disapproved of the celebration of Mass in the presence of the enthroned Blessed Sacrament. Fr. Serge wryly observes that had anyone tried to point this out the parish priest, he would have been told to go elsewhere; he notes that the faithful who have attempted to point out abuses in the Novus Ordo have been similarly dismissed.

5. Overwhelming Preference for the Low Mass. Fr. Serge hurls quite a number of bombshells here. To begin with, he notes that all prostestations to the contrary notwithstanding, the real basis for the Novus Ordo is the Low Mass. He follows this with a brief synopsis on the development of the low Mass; i.e., how it began as an abbreviated form of the Solemn Mass to be used when priests celebrated without the presence of a congregation, how it eventually became a public Mass, with the congregation worshipping however they pleased while the priest also prayed silently, and how music unrelated to the liturgical action was gradually inserted into the Low Mass. He observes that the Solemn (High) Mass came to be regarded as suitable only for the most important holy days, and generally a burden to be avoided. While every scholar knew that the Pontifical High Mass was the normative form of the Roman Liturgy, everyone's practical experience was the opposite: the Low Mass was normal, and the High Mass a rare aberration, which ordinary Catholics avoided at all costs.

He notes that in this century, attempts at reforming the Low Mass led to a variety of other abuses, starting with the so-called "Dialogue Mass" that originated in Germany in the 1920s, and which reached the US in the 1950s. The Dialogue Mass was a low Mass in which the entire congregation recited the responses once said silently by the acolytes. The existence of this hybrid made celebration of the High Mass even more rare, but worse, it encouraged misunderstanding of the congregational role in the Mass. For instance, the priest continued to read silently the Propers, which should have been sung by the congregation; the people did not recite the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, or Agnus Dei--all of which were still recited silently by the priest. At the same time, the people did recite the Suscipiat response to the Orate, Fratres--which rightfully are a dialogue between the celebrant and concelebrating presbyters.


Fr. Serge quotes Cardinal Heenan in a 1967 interview, in which Heenan said.

Quote:
I cannot think that anyone with pastoral experience would have regarded the sung Mass as being of first importance. Our people love the Mass, but it is the Low Mass without psalm-singing and other musical embellishments, to which they are chiefly attached.


In other words, Low Mass is what matters, Music is a "trivial embellishment" that would drive people from the Church.

6. A Passion for Uniformity (and conversely, a Terror of Pluralism). Fr. Serge notes that devotees of the Novus Ordo often compare its erstwhile "pluralism" with the "rigidity" of the pre-Concilliar liturgy. But, he observes, the truth is more complex. Taking on the language issue first, he takles the "argument from tourism", that because of Latin, the Mass is the same for Catholics everywhere and at any time. He says regarding this:

Quote:
The argument is idiotic and rest on several false premises, but it is very powerful emotionally; even people who knew perfectly well that it wasn't true still managed to believe it. They wanted it to be true; therefore it must be true. And evidence to the contrary must be kept out of sight. The Liturgy should be done the same way everywhere (in preparation for Vatican II, the American Roman Catholic bishops seriously demanded the suppression of the Eastern Catholic Churches in the USA); nobody should know about the different liturgies of the religious orders; the Mozerabic Rite should be locked in its small chapel in Toledo
.

Fr. Serge then goes on to state that three decades later, the official liturgical books of the Novus Ordo have so many options that one needs a computer to keep them all straight, but that in reality the options are constrained by a prevailing group-think. He gives examples:

-The Sacramentary provides for the chanting of the Gospel, but where in any Roman Catholic parish will you find this done?

-The Roman Canon, first of the four Eucharistic Prayers, has a special variations for the Communicantes at Christmas, and the General Instruction states that the Roman Canon be used on days for which such variations are appropriate, but often this is not done because the text is omitted from the service books and misslettes given to the people.

-The Eastward Orientation of the celebrant. Fr. Serge notes with growing outrage (I know the man--he's about six foot six, full-blown Irish, and has a temper) that there is not one official document that requires the priest to celebrate the Mass using the versus populum; i.e., facing the people:

The rubrics of the Novus Ordo assume that the celebrant is facing East, and require him to turn and face the people to bestow certain blessings. But may God in His infinite mercy be kind to the priest who dares to celebrate the Novus Ordo facing East! One may not even discuss the matter (almost no Catholic bookshops will sell Monsignor Klaus Gamber's book on the subject).

(For those who want it, the title is The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, Its Problems and Background, Una Voce Press (San Juan Capistrano, CA) 1993); despite some hyperbole surrounding the origins of the Roman rite, the book is actually quite good on recent developments.

Fr. Serge concludes this part of his paper by observing that:

Quote:
On this point, in practice the Novus Ordo is far less pluralistic and tolerant than the Tridentine Mass; well before Vatican II, it was possible to find places where the Tridentine Mass was said "facing the people" on a regular basis, and it was not unusual to find this practice done in other places on particular occasions, usually for educational purposes.


Having examined the principles of the liturgical movement, and the preconciliar roots of the current crisis, Fr. Serge Kelleher now addresses the question of what the liturgical movement actually wanted. He begins by noting that he was a dedicated vernacularist who looked forward to the celebration of the Mass in English. Two things, however, he and his fellow reformers never anticipated:

First, that celebration of the Roman Liturgy in Latin would be prohibited. Such a prohibition is nowhere mentioned in Sacrosanctum Concillium; in fact, it states that use of the vernacular may be extended, while that of Latin is retained. Furthermore, it directed that all the faithful should be taught to sing certain parts of the Mass in Latin. The liturgical movement also expected that Latin and vernacular celebrations of the Mass would exist side-by-side, with the Latin version remaining normative.

He says that, in retrospect, such an expectation was unrealistic, because most priests were unwilling to maintain anything resembling a choice (Kelleher is too nice to imply that most priests heartily detested Latin, a language in which they had only limited facility).

Second, and this is most telling, "Still less did we realize that "vernacular" was going to mean a cross between computerese and newspaper jargon". Kelleher tells us that it was the expectation of the liturgical movement in the English-speaking countries (Kelleher himself is Irish, schooled in the US and UK) that the Anglican translations of the Roman Liturgy would be adapted for Catholic use, since the Anglicans had been using all or
part of the Roman Liturgy in English for a very long time, and had done much work in liturgical chant. "Why refuse to benefit from this work and instead attempt to reinvent the wheel?"

Kelleher puts this failure down to one factor, totally unrelated to the principles and objectives of liturgical reform: secularism.

Quote:
The note which marks the ICEL translations and connects them to the Novus Ordo so intimately is the false but powerful principle of Archbishop Annibale Bugnini that the norm for the liturgy and for Church renewal is modern Western man, who is the normative man, the perfect man, the final man, the everlasting man. For Bugnini, secularization was a necessary process, something the Church needed to accept and to embrace. Bugnini accepted and embraced secularism because he said it was reality, and it was necessary to accept reality. He held to the philosophical view that man is made without God and does not need God. Such a mindset necessarily excludes anything resembling hieratic or sacral speech. In spite of protestations to the contrary, ICEL does not object to hieratic language because "it cannot be understood"; ICEL objects to hieratic language because such language is redolent of the sacred. Such language is not horizontal; it leads the worshipper to elevate his heart and his soul to the transcendant God.

It should be noted here that Kelleher knew Bugnini and many other prelates who were even more intimate with him, and that this is an authentic representation of Bugnini's views (See "Interview with Abbot Boniface Luykx" Inside the Vatican, May 1996 for independent confirmation). He also notes that Bugnini was merely the most visible advocate of a perspective that was fairly widespread within the Vatican Curia at the time.

Finally, Fr. Serge Kelleher addresses one of the most commonly repeated myths about the Novus Ordo: that its formulation was heavily influenced by the Christian East. As a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Fr. Serge has a personal interest in this issue.

He begins with a quote by the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch, +Maximos IV, at Vatican II:

Quote:
We must not allow the adaptation of the liturgy to become and obsession. The liturgy, like the inspired writings, has a permanent value apart from the circumstances giving rise to it. Before altering a rite, we should make sure that a change is strictly necessary. The liturgy has an impersonal character and also has universality in space and time. It is, as it were, timeless, and thus enables us to see the divine aspect of eternity. These thoughts will enable us to understand what at first may seem shocking in some prayers of the liturgy--feasts that seem no longer appropriate, antiquated gestures, calls for vengence which reflect a pre-Christian mentality, anguished cries in the dark of the night, and so on. It is good to feel oneself thus linked with all the ages of mankind. We pray not only with our contemporaries, but with men who have lived in all centuries.


Kelleher looks at the relationship between the Novus Ordo and the Eastern liturgies, and while noting that the advocates of the new Mass sometimes claimed an Eastern inspiration for their changes, it was but a short-lived "affair of convenience", one that flattered Eastern Catholics and gave the Novus Ordo reformers a cover of legitimacy. But any real relationship between the Novus Ordo and the Eastern liturgies is illusory, because the two are
based on diametrically opposed assumptions about the relationship of God and man.

Kelleher looks at some specific "points of resemblance" between the Novus Ordo and the Eastern liturgies:

1. Concelebration: the Byzantine liturgy specifically allows for concelebration whenever the clergy so desire; in other traditions, concelebration occurs only at special occasions, if at all. Under the Tridentine Rite, concelebration was limited only to the consecration of bishops and the ordination of priests. Sacrosanctum Concillium extended the opportunities for concelebration, but there is no direct link between the Byzantine tradition and this change in the Roman rite. In fact, there are several substantive differences: in the Byzantine rite, each concelebrant must be at the altar, in full Eucharistic vestments; in the new Roman rite, concelebrants can be away from the altar, and not even in full vestments. Kelleher calls these "mob concelebrations", and recalls a scene in Rome in 1976, when some 700 priests concelebrated a single liturgy. Quoting an unnamed Eastern Patriarch (it was +Maximos V) who witnessed this scandalous event, "They go from one extreme to the other".

2. Administration of Holy Communion Under Both Species. The Christian East administers communion both of the Body and Blood, with the two elements mixed together in the chalice and administered on a golden spoon; that method was rejected by Vatican II at the outset. Fr. Serge notes that the unfortunate practice of administering communion "in the hand" (something completely alien, not to mention impossible in the Eastern rites) became common soon afterwards. He notes that most Eastern Christians regard this practice as scandalous, to the point that the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Greece had to prohibit it entirely at Roman Masses celebrated in that country.

3. Vernacular Liturgy. Fr. Serge notes that the situation in the East is far more complicated than the apologists for the Novus Ordo pretend. It is true that the original languages of the Eastern Church were Greek and Syriac, and that as time passed, it was translated into new languages as needed (Slavonic, Armenian, Coptic, etc).--but in almost every case, Eastern liturgies have been celebrated either in a hieratic language (Coptic, Ge'ez, Syriac, or Church Slavonic) connected to the history and culture of particular peoples, or in a hieratic form of a vernacular language (e.g., Greek). He points out that the Eastern Churches have generally tried to make translations that were at the same time, understandable and sacral, using sacral idioms throughout. According to Fr. Serge, "No Eastern Church would tolerate the sort of language produced by ICEL; ICEL's inspiration could not have come from the Christian East."

4. Multiple Eucharistic Prayers. Fr. Serge begins by noting that the Eastern liturgies have several Eucharistic prayers (anaphora), but that even before Vatican II, the same could be said of the Roman rite, for the Preface is part of the Eucharistic prayer, and the 1962 Missal lists no fewer than fifteen different Prefaces. And he points out that other Western rites, such as the Mozerabic, have even greater variety (to the point where one has to question whether the Mozerabic rite even has a fixed Eucharistic prayer).

In selecting alternative Eucharistic prayers for the Novus Ordo, the Concillium deliberately avoided using anything derived from either the Basil or Chrysostom liturgies. The Second Eucharistic Prayer is sometimes claimed to be Eastern, because of its alleged authorship by St. Hippolytus, but Hippolytus of Rome is unknown in the Christian East, was a bishop of the Roman Church, and in any case, any relationship between the current Eucharistic prayer
and the Hippolytan canon is vague at best.

Having covered all the bases, Fr. Serge Kelleher now explores the ongoing task of the liturgical movement. He agrees with the statement that, "there must be a reform of the reform", but what does that mean? First of all, he cautions against any undue haste because of the potentially catastrophic pastoral consequences. Rather, he calls in the near term for a revival of the liturgical movement, according to its original principles and objectives:
fidelity to the Church, reverence for the Liturgy, study and publication of biblical and patristic sources, popularization of the Liturgy of the Hours, rediscovery and renewal of authentic liturgical music, iconography and architecture, and a parallel monastic revival. He also calls on Latin Christians to develop, in accordance with the call of Pope John Paul II, a more profound awareness of the theology, liturgy, spirituality and discipline of the
Eastern Churches. He notes,

Quote:
There is no reason to start all over again; much essential source material was published and continues to be published. Some of the classic works of the masters of the liturgical movement are now out of print; they should be reprinted and used. The liturgical movement must encourage further scholarship, and regular gatherings of prayer and worship; there is no real liturgical movement without a constant thirst for holiness.


He asks that those interested in a sound liturgical movement work to make the Eastern liturgies more open and available to Western Christians, "for the benefit of a more complete understanding of Catholic worship. The Novus Ordo represents a turning away from the Christian East; a greater awareness of the Christian East can be most salutary". He notes that, because it developed in the eclectic environment of "New Rome", which combined Roman, Greek and Semitic culture into an harmonious synthesis, the Byzantine Liturgy is the only Catholic Tradition not tied to a particular culture. This, he argues, is why the Byzantine Tradition is able to take root in otherwise highly diverse cultures, and that "in a time when there is justified concern for the 'inculturation' of the Faith in diverse cultures, the Byzantine example deserves attention."

Fr. Serge quotes Dom Lambert Beauduin's principle that "one cannot reform that which one does not know". For thirty years, the Novus Ordo has had a virtual stranglehold on Western liturgical celebration. He calls, as a necessary precondition for a reform of the reform, real pluralism in the Latin Church: not just the Novus Ordo in Latin and vernacular versions, supplemented by the Tridentine rite, but also greater use of all the extant Western liturgies: Mozerabic, Ambrosian, and the different monastic liturgies--Carmelite, Cistercian, Dominican, Premonstratensian, etc. He calls for much wider use of the indult for the Tridentine rite using the 1962 missal, because "one cannot possibly understand the liturgical movement and the decree Sacrosanctum Concillium without being familiar with the Rite of the Mass. However, he does call, as an immediate measure, for the translation of the 1962 Missal into proper vernacular versions:

Quote:
"Vernacular in this context must not mean the idiom of the ICEL. To begin with, there could be an adaptation of the English Missal, which has the advantage that there is liturgical music to match the texts. This is not quite an innovation for Catholics; the scant handful of 'Anglican Use' parishes in the US are following a liturgy along these lines, using Coverdale's translation of the Roman Canon".


At the same time, he calls for a complete rejection of the ICEL translation of the Novus Ordo Missal, and its replacement with one that accurately reflects the Latin text and uses proper sacral idiom, resulting in a Mass suitable for use throughout the English-speaking world. There could also be, he notes, specific variations for the UK, the US, Australia and elsewhere. This could be accompanied by a restoration of versus apsidem orientation for the priest, though, he notes, this will take some pastoral sensitivity so that the people fully understand the import of the change. And, finally, he recommends restoration of Gregorian Chant as normative for the Church, and the encouragement of good cantors and choirs. But, finally, he recognizes that these are all interim measures, and that true liturgical reform will require many years of patient dedication on the part of all those who love the authentic Tradition of Catholic worship.


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#336684 - 11/07/09 11:51 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Jakub. Offline
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Registered: 10/15/02
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Thank you Stuart for a excellent read...

Hopefully the 40 years of wandering will come to the end.

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#336688 - 11/08/09 02:48 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Administrator]
aramis Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
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Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
Unfortunately, John, the reality of the Trent Liturgy is one of being an audience, not active, as Stuart notes.

That the Missa Privata is itself an abuse of the understanding of what liturgy is, as, again, Stuart notes. Even the Missa Cantata is not the work of the people, but the work of the schola and the priest.

The reduction of the deacon to no real role is also a denial of the traditional role of the Deacon; the Roman Church has swung the pendulum far in both directions. In the Missa Cantata and Missa Privata, the deacon was considered totally superfluous; the destruction of the deaconate as a ministry in and of itself is fruit of the Trent liturgy and its immediate Roman predecessors. Even in the Missa Solemnis, the deacon's ministry was subsumed by the priesthood, often even when a deacon was available, and the subdeacon's by the priest or deacon, again often even when the proper minister was present. In essence, the Deacon and Subdeacon were extraordinary ministers in their own vocation's roles. While this practice was not in the rubrics, it was common enough praxis. It also is evident by the extreme scarcity of deacons outside monasticism and friary.

The Role of the ordained lector, even, was subsumed into the subdeacon's role. The ordained lector, ordained to proclaim the epistle, was relegated to bookstand; the Subdeacon proclaimed the Epistle, and held the book of the gospels for the deacon.

Concelebration by priests was forbidden; the Trent Liturgy permitted priests to meet their obligation by serving as Deacon or Subdeacon, which, being Roman Priests of that era, they had received as prior ordinations.

The lack of substantial epiclesis is a major issue with the Trent liturgy according to several Orthodox sources. (Rev. Fr. Schmemman; St. Tikhon) So much so that the WRO add an explicit post-institution narrative epiclesis. It's a discomforting issue for many byzantines.

St. John Chrysostom has been quoth often as having desired the Liturgy to teach the faith. St. Basil as well. The Roman Liturgy is poor at this; the Byzantine far better, tho' still insufficient on its own (as evidenced by the actions of Blessed Theodore Romzha as Bishop of Muchachevo; also attested to by several Ruthenians and Ukrainians quoth in Rev. Fr. Zugger's A Hidden Church).

The Roman Liturgy of the Trent Council also was commonly celebrated without the faithful being invited to public hours, tho' it was not proscribed, it was also not prescribed, either. The office of hours was, by simple neglect, the province of ordered monastics and friars, and of clerics.

The Missal of Paul VI addresses several of these, most especially presbyteral displacement of deacons (by explicitly forbidding a priest to serve as deacon when a deacon who is not also a priest is present), and of subdeacons by elimination of that order, and in fact of all minor orders of clerics (Vatican II). It addresses the teaching issue by both authorizing use of the vernacular and by instituting the new lectionary and gospel calendars.

Rome will probably not add an explicit post-institution epiclesis any time in the lifetime of those on this board; Roman Theology truly does not see the need especially with the invocation of the holy spirit upon the gifts before the institution narrative.

Further, His Holiness has not been nearly so outspoken since his elevation as he was prior.

Given that the Trent Liturgy was in fact replaced with the Liturgy promulgated by HH Pope John XXIII, and by his predecessors Their Holinesses St Pious X and Leo XII. Minor changes each; each abrogated the prior Editio Typica of the liturgy. It is only the Liturgy of Pope John XXIII that is not abrogated and that is a trivial difference from those prior. (But different enough to warrant 9 annotations of changes in my mother's Missal, ©1956.) But he has also made it clear the Ordinary form is not defective, and that the EF, aka the Missal of HH John XXIII promulgated in 1962, is still permitted and not superior to the 1974 Missal of HH Paul VI (which was abrogated by the 1986 revision), nor of the 1986 missal of HH John Paul II. He's also made it clear that the EF is not inferior to the OF, either, and neither inferior nor superior to the Eastern Divine Liturgies... but another option for Clerics and the Faithful. (In his Encyclical on the EF.)

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#336690 - 11/08/09 05:29 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: aramis]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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My thanks to Stuart, both for the original review and for the repetition of it now. Leaving aside such things as spelling errors, there are one or two errors in the review - for example, that 1976 Mass with about 700 "concelebrants" which prompted the Patriarch's comment took place, not in Rome, but in Philadelphia during a Eucharist Congress. It was, indeed, deplorable.

Fr. Serge

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#336692 - 11/08/09 08:37 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
The lack of substantial epiclesis is a major issue with the Trent liturgy according to several Orthodox sources. (Rev. Fr. Schmemman; St. Tikhon) So much so that the WRO add an explicit post-institution narrative epiclesis. It's a discomforting issue for many byzantines.


They are all wrong. And I do not see why you keep harping on this. But, to recap:

1. The reason the Tridentine rite does not have an explicit epiclesis is the Roman Canon does not have an explicit epiclesis.

2. The Roman Canon does not have an explicit epiclesis is it predates the pneumatological controversies that necessitated one in the various Eastern anaphorae--though note, the Anaphora of Addai and Mari, perhaps the oldest still in use, lacks both an epiclesis and the institution narrative. Just because one liturgy has something and another does not, does not mean one or the other is somehow defective or deficient.

3. The Fathers considered the entire anaphora a single consecratory action, and the notion that the elements of transformed either at this point or that point, is a scholastic innovation.

4. The inclusion of multiple Eucharistic Prayers in the Novus Ordo is a deviation from the Latin Tradition, since the Roman rite always had just one anaphora--the Roman Canon.

5. The inclusion of an explicit epiclesis in several of these new anaphorae violates the Christocentric emphasis of the Latin rite.

6. The use of the various new anaphorae is not governed by the liturgical calendar, but is left to the discretion of the celebrant; such a thing is unknown in the Eastern Churches (a priest cannot just celebrate Basil instead of Chrysostom, or James instead of either, just because the whim hits him), and has created a sort of "Gresham's Law of Eucharistic Prayers"--celebrants habitually choose the shortest one, and the true anaphora of the Latin Church, the Roman Canon, gets short shrift.

In short, the entire issue of the epiclesis in the Roman Canon is a red herring, and Orthodox charges that the Latins deleted it were nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to equally ignorant charges that the Greeks had deleted the Filioque from the Creed. Thanks largely to liturgical scholarship by, among others, Father Alexander Schmemann, the consensus among both Catholic and Orthodox theologians is the presence or absence of the epiclesis is not an essential issue, but rather something that reflects the internal development of each individual rite.

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#336693 - 11/08/09 09:44 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
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Quote:
The 16th century reformers thought they were re-creating the early church. Reforms always come about as bringing back practices of the early church
.

As well they should. And your comment should apply equally to the Fathers of Trent as to the Divines of Tubingen. Both thought they were returning to the sources. Both were wrong, but for different reasons.

Quote:
This is how the tradition of the church is destroyed, it is in the name of the "early church".


To restore the Tradition, you must first know the Tradition. For too many people, "Tradition" means, "The stuff we were doing on the day I was baptized". It's not.

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#336696 - 11/08/09 02:16 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
John K Offline
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Registered: 11/15/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Rocky Hill, CT
My mother loves to relate EVERY year, her Holy Saturday story. She would get to the church early on that morning and wait with the nuns in the sacristy, while the assistant priest blessed the fire and read the lessons, while,here's the kicker, at the same time, the pastor would bless the water and say the rest of the mass. Then they could get on with the real business of the day, the priests, going to the homes to bless the food, and the nuns and their helpers, to decorate the church for Easter. Ah, the good ole days! wink

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#336712 - 11/08/09 05:49 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: John K]
storyteller Offline
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Registered: 03/02/06
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Loc: New Jersey
I grew up through these changes. I was Greek Catholic. I worshiped in the Slavonic Language. We had to explain to people that we were Catholics. Our Greek Catholic school used Roman Rite religion books. I saw the Iconstasis tore out. I used Roman Rite devotion books due to a lack of Byzantine books. I entered the Seminary and discovered the Byzantine Rite. I found out there were lots of books in English by the Orthodox. I saw disagreement about how to follow our Byzantine heritage. I saw priests mandate changes without regards for the people. I see an ideal Byzantine rite being created that lacks a soul.
All of this makes me who I am. When we discuss what some has written we see the words not the experience that caused then to use those words.
The Church can be slow to change rightly so. The changes it made in the 60's came at a turbulent time in America. Everything was changing, morality, spirituality, family, society. On top of all this the Church joined in. Maybe the people who left because of the Church changes would have left even if no changes were made. But in a time when people needed stability there was none to be found.
How can the Church relate to a society that in the past 50 years has seen changes at an unprecedented rate. When today latest innovation is obsolate torrow. How can we speak of Liturgy as a meal when families do not share a meal. How can we speak of marriage a a sign of the Church when society is trying to redefine it.
We must be aware of the people and society that existed that followed the traditions we hold dear. We need transformation not change. If had prized possession that had become dusty and tarnished, and not a useful as before you would not throw it out of have it recycled to something different. Rather you would polish away the dust and tarnish and maybe add embelishments. So that once again you would have your prized possession.

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#336716 - 11/08/09 06:43 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Oddly enough, I am inclined to think that one may celebrate Basil instead of Chrysostom - perhaps I am influenced by the popular fallacy that Basil is an abbreviation of Chrysostom. More to the point, Basil is festive (believe it or not) and was retained for feasts and for the Sundays of Great Lent - which are moments that are traditionally conservative.

The praxis of the Church seems to tolerate a wider use of the Liturgy of Saint James, but there is certainly a need for careful discernment, adequate preparation, and pastoral prudence. There are no dates specifically requiring the use of James, but certainly his feast day is appropriate. In case anyone is wondering, I myself have served the Liturgy of Saint James precisely once in my entire life, and have no immediate plans to do so again.

Fr. Serge

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#336720 - 11/08/09 07:30 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
StuartK Online   content
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Loc: Falls Church, VA
Basil and Chrysostom have completely separate origins--the former through the Liturgy of St. James as amended by St. Basil, the latter from the Anaphora of the Holy Apostles as modified by St. John. Basil was the standard liturgy of the Church of Constantinople from the late fourth century; Chrysostom did not displace it until the 13th century or even later. James apparently was used more commonly, but fell into disuse in Constantinople after loss of the Middle East and Egypt.

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#336752 - 11/09/09 02:07 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Since I described the idea that Chrysostom is an abbreviation of Basil as a "popular fallacy", I'm not sure why you would imply that there is a need to instruct me on the same point.

The use of the Liturgy of Saint James in the Eastern Orthodox Church has never died out. Its use has become more popular of late. As an Orthodox Archbishop who was a close friend until he died some thirty years ago was wont to say "if I wish to serve the Liturgy of Saint James I am not required to become a Monophysite"!

Fr. Serge

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#336763 - 11/09/09 06:14 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
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I wasn't instructing. Sorry if it appeared so. I also never said that the Liturgy of St. James died out, only that it fell into disuse from the 7th century onward. I believe that it has always been used, at least occasionally, by the Orthodox Church of Jerusalem.

On when it can be celebrated, I think a bishop as liturgiarch of his diocese can pretty much do what he wants, though most generally follow the typicon of their particular Church. But shouldn't a presbyter be governed either by the typicon or by the directives of his bishops, with regard to which liturgies to celebrate?

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#337125 - 11/13/09 12:01 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Fr_Kimel Offline
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Registered: 02/12/08
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What planet does Fr Taft live on? Has he experienced the typcal Mass at the typical Catholic congregation here in the U.S.? I presume that he has. I also presume that he has not been scandalized. Given the terrible music and superficial songs, the informality and irreverence, the monopolistic song leader belting into the microphone, thus making i impossible for anyone else to sing, the pathetic preaching, --given the absence of beauty and grace, how can anyone be positively formed and transformed by these liturgies? They are spiritually and ascetically disastrous. They are no less disastrous because they were "approved" by church hierarchs.

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#337132 - 11/13/09 12:45 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Fr_Kimel]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Registered: 06/22/06
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Yes, Father Taft has experienced these horrors - like most of us, he strives to avoid them. I wouldn't even dare tell you about another horror which he mentioned to me recently.

A history lesson is truly likely to help - at the very least, by telling us that a "write-your-own Mass" is not likely to succeed!

Fr. Serge

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#337182 - 11/13/09 10:18 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Fr_Kimel]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
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Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
Fr Kimel, what is a typical Mass, and what is a typical Catholic congregation in the U.S.? Indeed, I have found many different levels of beauty, inspiration and devotion as well as the simply banal in both. "Star differs from star in beauty and intensity", or something like that. It's always tempting to caricaturize, and it's easy to do. I've experienced the monks at St Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, MA celebrate the Novus Ordo with dignity, devotion and extraordinary beauty, accompanied by guitars, no less. The liturgies of the Catholic Church are equal in dignity, importance, antiquity and beauty, and all have developed quite organically. To say otherwise is a crime. Stop the Latin bashing, guys.

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#337185 - 11/13/09 10:52 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Utroque,

What about us Latins? Can we not say what we think of the Novus Ordo?

The liturgies of the Catholic Church are not all equal in dignity, importance, antiquity, or beauty. That is just patently false. The Novus Ordo is not as old as the Traditional Rites, obviously. That's jsut a historical fact. Perhaps the other descriptions are [i]technically[/u] up for debate, but in my mind, not really.

I don't agree that it's a crime to speak the truth.

Alexis

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#337205 - 11/13/09 01:47 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
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Paragraph Four of the Introduction to Sacrosanctum Concilium states that, "HMC holds that all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity." Your disagreement is with HMC not me. The Novus Ordo is the officially sanctioned revision of the very ancient Roman Rite and has restored elements of that rite which predate Trent. It is not a crime to speak the truth, but it is a crime to treat with contempt that which is holy. To suggest that the intelligent, humble and saintly Pope Paul VI was duped and deceived by a canonical band of "loose cannons" under the leadership of Archbishop Bugnini is, I find, quite despicable, and so does Fr. Robert Taft. Enough said.

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#337228 - 11/13/09 07:11 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
StuartK Online   content
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6014
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
To suggest that the intelligent, humble and saintly Pope Paul VI was duped and deceived by a canonical band of "loose cannons" under the leadership of Archbishop Bugnini is, I find, quite despicable, and so does Fr. Robert Taft. Enough said.


I don't much care whether it is despicable or not. As an historian, my only concern is whether it is true. There's quite enough evidence out there to suggest that it is. And Paul VI might have been saintly, but he was frequently duped, sad to say. Need an example? "Ostpolitik".

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#337230 - 11/13/09 07:41 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Just a Pilgrim Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 105
Loc: Eire
Originally Posted By: Utroque
Fr Kimel, what is a typical Mass, and what is a typical Catholic congregation in the U.S.? Indeed, I have found many different levels of beauty, inspiration and devotion as well as the simply banal in both. "Star differs from star in beauty and intensity", or something like that. It's always tempting to caricaturize, and it's easy to do. I've experienced the monks at St Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, MA celebrate the Novus Ordo with dignity, devotion and extraordinary beauty, accompanied by guitars, no less. The liturgies of the Catholic Church are equal in dignity, importance, antiquity and beauty, and all have developed quite organically. To say otherwise is a crime. Stop the Latin bashing, guys.



I can only take it that you don't know who Fr Kimel is to accuse him of Latin bashing. And yes Paul VI was duped - a personally holy and orthodox man, he should never (more than anything for his own sake) have had the responsibility of being Pope of Rome thrust upon him: he was too gentle and kindly a man to resist the likes of Bugnini and his ilk. In his later days he even lamented himself that the "smoke of Satan" had entered the church during his reign.


Edited by Just a Pilgrim (11/13/09 07:41 PM)

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#337239 - 11/13/09 08:17 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Just a Pilgrim]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
More of the same. Ah, well, your talking to yourselves, or, at least, preaching to the choir. There's an old Irish tale which maintains that if the devil wants to get into the church he joins the choir. I do not think the aging pontiff was referring to the Novus Ordo that he sanctioned when referring to the "Smoke of Satan". You must remember his most humble requiem that he himself requested. It did set an example that has been followed since. He was no fool. I was not referring to Fr Kimel, but to the general tone of the posts in this thread

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#337271 - 11/14/09 10:27 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: StuartK]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
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Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
"There's quite enough evidence out there to suggest that it is."

Well, there is also quite enough evidence out there to suggest that it is not. In your quest for the truth as an historian, you ought to be more open to your sources. I might suggest Archbishop Piero Marini as one. "

"Ostpolitik"? I believe a Slavic cardinal was elected Pope Paul VI's successor. Fancy that.

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#337272 - 11/14/09 10:33 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Utroque]
Logos - Alexis Offline
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Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4636
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Well, let us not forget John Paul I. He was a Pope too, after all.

Utroque,

If you noticed from my post, my biggest problem with your wording was "antiquity." The Novus Ordo is younger than my parents (and I'm just 22).

I have no doubt that all the rites of the Church are also equal in "right." But one wouldn't know it from 1969 to July 2007, when the idea that the Traditional Rites were abrogated was attempted to be forced down the faithful's throats. In fact, it is still often presented as such by most of the Latin bishops, though each passing day brings with it a small victory for Tradition in this regard.

Alexis

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#337273 - 11/14/09 11:16 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
Utroque Offline
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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 232
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
It's an "Ordo", younger brother, sort of like a revised typikon of the very ancient Roman Rite, and it was not forced down anyone's throat. It is the Roman Rite in current use throughout most of the western church. As I have said over and over again it was received with a great deal of enthusiasm by the vast majority of the faithful in the western church, Stuart snide remarks about bishops notwithstanding. I am old enough to have seen awful abuses in both the Novus Ordo and what is now called the the Extraordinary Form. American priests, for the most part, had a most unpleasant, flat way of pronouncing Latin.

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#337282 - 11/14/09 03:08 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
theophan Offline
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Registered: 11/27/02
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Quote:
I have no doubt that all the rites of the Church are also equal in "right." But one wouldn't know it from 1969 to July 2007, when the idea that the Traditional Rites were abrogated was attempted to be forced down the faithful's throats. In fact, it is still often presented as such by most of the Latin bishops,


L-A:

Christ is in our midst!! He is and always will be!!

For better or for worse, the introduction of the current liturgical use was the way the Church responded to the Vatican Council. The Council bishops called for a thorough liturgical reform. What that came to look like we all have had exposure to over the past 45 years. At no point did anyone hold the idea that the Vatican Council's directives on liturgy were to be ignored. And this latter position seems to be the case for those who have so adamantly opposed the reform. That there may be a need for a "reform of the reform" is an open question, which I, myself, welcome. Even the leader of the SSPX at its inception, voted for the reform at the Council. It was only later that he began his opposition.

Nothing was "shoved down" anyone's throat. The liturgical reform as it moved along was the ongoing life of the Latin Church as called for by its ecumenical council. And the whole idea that this was somehow a forced issue minimizes the reality that the Holy Spirit is alive and well, intimately involved in the whole process. If not, then the Church is not the Church and is down a dead end. To say that borders on blasphemy.

I, for one, lived through the same period that our fellow, utroque, traveled. In fact, I got a lot of "up close and personal" in the way this reform was carried out and how it affected people--people who stopped going to church altogether come back when it's time for a funeral in the family and all the old wounds get picked open. Sloppy liturgy was the order of the day. Older clergy tried to preserve some decorum, but so many of the younger guys thought this whole thing was a call for a "free-for-all" when it came to how they would officiate, often causing more scandal than increase in piety.

The Council also came back to the idea that the bishop of the palce was to be the principle liturgical figure in his diocese, something that had been lost. The fact that no one saw a bishop for the most part except when he came out to confirm or ordain spoke to that era. So we still have a long way to go with the ongoing reform of the liturgical life of the Latin Church, but it's not something that was not widely desired by both bishops and laity of that era.

BOB

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#337285 - 11/14/09 05:18 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: theophan]
Logos - Alexis Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4636
Loc: Georgia
Bob and Utroque,

Thank you for your comments.

We will have to agree to disagree concerning whether the idea that the Traditional Rites were abrogated/totally replaced by the New Rites was "forced down the faithful's throats," as I said.

History (and today, too) is rife with examples of hierarchs and others in position of Church leadership on a war path to make sure that everyone knew the Traditional Rites were abrogated. For some, in my opinion, it bordered on a demonic obsession.

Our Holy Father has gratefully dispelled the misconception that the Traditional Rites were abrogated in his motu proprio, Summorum Pontificum.

But to deny that the impression given to the faithful and priests by many in power that the only possibility was "the new way or no way" is misrepresentative on its face, in my opinion.

Alexis

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#337301 - 11/15/09 03:45 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Logos - Alexis]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm going to suggest that folks soften the tenor of their disagreements - the thread is beginning to take a tone that is inconsistent with civil discourse in polite society. It is one thing to debate, it is another to personalize comments; the first is acceptable, the second is not.

Finally, with no opinion to express on the matter as a whole, I will remind posters that, regardless of whether one 'likes' or 'dislikes' the rubrics and ritual form of a Liturgy - Latin or otherwise - such cannot be dismissed as spiritually bankrupt. There is an inherent spirituality in the fact that the Consecration is performed within the Liturgy, be it Novus Ordo, Tridentine, Byzantine, or of any other Rite or Usage. Those who cannot accept that fact need to rethink why they identify themselves as members of an Apostolic Church.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#337304 - 11/15/09 04:05 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Irish Melkite]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Well, one might perhaps say that certain innovations were imposed on the faithful without ascertaining whether the faithful wanted these innovations. Not all of these are attributable to the Second Vatican Council: to give three examples:

1. The Council explicitly provided for the retention of Latin;

2. The Council never mentioned "Communion in the hand"; and

3. Nothing in the Vatican II documents requires the celebration of Mass facing the assembly.

Does anyone care to take issue with me on any or all of these three points? And have I succeeded in stating them without violating the ruling of our Irish Melkite brother?

Fr. Serge

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#337308 - 11/15/09 04:32 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher
And have I succeeded in stating them without violating the ruling of our Irish Melkite brother?


Bless, Father,

You most certainly have - and no less might be expected from one such as yourself, endowed by nature and learning with solabharthact (and could Father Prout's self-description as 'an Irish potato seasoned with Attic salt' be ever more aptly applied than to a Byzantine Irishman such as yourself biggrin ?)

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#337322 - 11/15/09 11:03 AM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Irish Melkite]
Logos - Alexis Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4636
Loc: Georgia
Just to be clear, I don't doubt that the Novus Ordo can be celebrated in a sacred, solemn manner, or that it is inherently "holy," since our Lord mystically becomes present on the altar during the Holy Sacrifice.

I'm somewhat astonished I would even need to clarify this. If one has read my comments with care, this should be clear.

Same thing goes for Vatican II and the Pauline Reforms.

My point really is simply focusing around what the faithful were led to believe concerning the abrogation of the Traditional Rites in the Latin Church over the past 40 years.

Alexis


Edited by Logos - Alexis (11/15/09 11:03 AM)

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#337343 - 11/15/09 06:09 PM Re: Fr Robert Taft says a history lesson is needed [Re: Irish Melkite]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Go raibh maith agat!

It is also to the point to remember that no less an authority than Pope John Paul II found it appropriate to issue a public apology to all the faithful for the scandal which had been associated with the liturgical reform.

Fr. Serge

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