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Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose] #339244 12/13/09 05:48 AM
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Nelson Chase Offline
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Shouldn't the Catholic Communion want the ROC to apologize for the violent suppression of the Greek Catholic Church by the Soviets and the giving of these Churches to the ROC. I think that the Russian Church is asking the Vatican to do a lot, but if the Vatican or the UGCC Church asked the same of the ROC would they do what they are asking of the Catholics?

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 12/13/09 05:56 AM.
Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Nelson Chase] #339246 12/13/09 06:31 AM
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Hieromonk Ambrose Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Shouldn't the Catholic Communion want the ROC to apologize for the violent suppression of the Greek Catholic Church by the Soviets and the giving of these Churches to the ROC. I think that the Russian Church is asking the Vatican to do a lot, but if the Vatican or the UGCC Church asked the same of the ROC would they do what they are asking of the Catholics?


The root problem is not the Soviet confiscation of Catholic properties but the tragic events that led to the evil of war and hatred between brothers hundreds of years earlier with the formation of another Church in traditionally Orthodox lands.

There is the problem of the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

There is the problem of Austria-Hungary denying the Back to Orthodoxy movement in Sub-carpathia and putting the Orthodox on trial for treason.

There is the problem of the Polish government which invaded and occupied Galicia in the interwar period and seized Orthodox properties as "restitution" for the Russian occupation, and turned them over to the Vatican.

And there is the problem of the churches the Vatican built on demolished Orthodox Churches, e.g. St. George Cathedral in Lviv.

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose] #339247 12/13/09 09:08 AM
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To add to Hieromonk Ambrose's comments, the matter of what the MP (not ROCOR, which was itself persecuted) takes responsibility for is somewhat complicated by its circumstances at the time of some of these events.

It did not neccessarily always have a say in what happened under its auspices in Soviet Times.

On the other hand, the UGCC had full autonomy; it was not under tight reigns or being forced to collaborate with an atheist government.

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Otsheylnik] #339249 12/13/09 09:47 AM
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The Catholic Church was never one to decline to take over churches forced into the Catholic communion in Eastern Europe. The Habsburgs and others did what they wanted and Rome claimed their share of the spoils. All it took was for a bishop to go Catholic and everyone and everything under them was made to go the same way as happened in Lviv when the bishop (I suspect was a sleeper) went over to Rome. The civil authorities enforced the move at parish level. The same occured in Transylvania when all Orthodox were put into the Catholic Church by the Hapsburgs.

I think the Catholics do have to say sorry for what Catholics did and not worry what others did back in other times in similar circumstances. That really is for other parties to nut out for themselves.

cool

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Pavel Ivanovich] #339250 12/13/09 10:54 AM
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Sorry to contradict, but the cases are not parallel. Eastern Orthodoxy continued, in Poland and in Austria-Hungary. Moreover, it was a century before L'viv and Peremyshyl accepted the Union of Brest - doesn't sound like force to me. After the Stauropegion Brotherhood accepted the Union, another Eastern Orthodox parish and church were immediately organized in L'viv, under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Metropolitan of Bukovyna. In Transylvania, once the dust settled, so to speak, the Greek-Catholics were at most about 50%. In the portions of Serbo-Croatia which belonged to Austria-Hungary, not only were the Orthodox not disturbed but the government financed the printing of service-books. And so on.

Such conditions did not apply in the USSR or in Communist Romania.

Fr. Serge

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #339251 12/13/09 02:11 PM
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There is the problem of the Churches which were forced into "union" under Brest and Uzhhorod.

I continually warn Father Ambrose against drinking his own bathwater, by which I mean taking at face value the polemical positions developed over the years and rejecting the facts as brought forth through scholarly research (this is the point at which Father Ambrose will denounce modern scholarship). Nonetheless, force was not involved in either of the two unions mentioned by Father Ambrose--they were, in fact, "bottom-up" instigated within the Orthodox communities of Ukraine and the Carpathians, largely without the knowledge or support of Rome. These are simple, historical facts, well documented, and laid out with admirable clarity in Borys Gudziak's Crisis and Reform: The Kyivan Metropolitanate, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and the Genesis of the Union of Brest, Harvard University Press (Cambridge, MA) 2001.

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #339252 12/13/09 02:15 PM
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It did not neccessarily always have a say in what happened under its auspices in Soviet Time
s.

As I have noted, Soviet times are long past (though look likely to be returning), and the Orthodox Church continues to insist that the false synods which abolished the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine, Romania, Slovakia and elsewhere were legitimate, uncoerced expressions of the will of the faithful of those communities. It's bad why a Church lies to others, but it's worse when it lies to itself.

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: StuartK] #339268 12/13/09 11:31 PM
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Shlomo Stuart,

Originally Posted by StuartK
It's bad why a Church lies to others, but it's worse when it lies to itself.


Right on Brother!

What is also sad is Our Churches desire for unification also over rides Our Leaders responsibility to seek justice. For one, the Ukrainian as well as the Romanian Churches should be made into Patriarchates. To me "Major-Archbishops" is just a false way of saying Patriarch. Two, The Russian Greek Catholic Church as well as the Gerogian Greek Catholic Church should have heirarchs put in place. The needs of Our faithful needs to be fulfilled.

I hope that the next pope is ecumenical, but also one that puts Catholic needs before that of other Apostolic Churches.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Epiphanius] #339270 12/14/09 12:56 AM
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Thank you Deacon.
Columba

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose] #339282 12/14/09 04:54 AM
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The posts by danman, DMD, and Deacon Richard say it all - I'd encourage others to read them. From DMD

Quote
seeking apologies and seeking recriminations over the sins committed by some as well as the (perceived)good faith actions of others,is akin to putting spilled milk back into a bottle. The laity and the clergy of both sides need to work together on a community by community basis to resolve these difficult and emotionally tough issues. Proclamations and slogans won't work. The pastoral example set by Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos and Metropolitan Basil of Pittsburgh is a template for reconciliation. We must respect the faith of each other if we truly believe the unity of the faith which we all petition during the Divine Liturgy is a goal worth striving for. Too much pain and suffering occurred both in Europe and America for anyone to demand apologies.


Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Irish Melkite] #339309 12/14/09 07:51 PM
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With all due respect, the situations are not equivalent. Nobody was rounding up people in Pennsylvania and sending them to the GULAG. Nobody was seizing property by force, and assigning it to another. And no Church was colluding with the secular powers to destroy another Church.

Furthermore, in the case of Metropolitan Nicholas and Metropolitan Judson, there was a true will to forgiveness and conciliation. To the extent that both sides offended against the other, there were apologies and contrition.

Such has not been the case with regard to the destruction of the Eastern Catholic Churches in Eastern Europe. There has been no admission of wrongdoing, hence there can be no apology, and no real effort at forgiveness and reconciliation. In fact, the Orthodox steadfastly reject the notion that they either did anything wrong or benefited in any way from the destruction of the Unia.

At best, we have gotten some pretty tepid statements along the lines of "certain actions taken in the 1940s were not necessarily beneficial to the Eastern Catholic Churches"--which is a lot like Germany saying something along the lines of "certain actions taken in the 1940s were not necessarily beneficial to the Jewish people".

And that brings up the real comparison: After World War II, Germany made a good faith effort to live up to the crimes of its past. It acknowledged what the Nazis did, and attempted, as best one possibly could, to make amends to the survivors and their descendants. Japan, on the other hand, has never acknowledged the slightest wrongdoing in World War II, refuses to take responsibility, and has offered neither apologies nor compensation to the victims of its crimes--which is why Japan and the Japanese are still loathed throughout much of Asia, not to mention Australia.

Last edited by StuartK; 12/14/09 07:52 PM.
Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Otsheylnik] #339312 12/14/09 08:11 PM
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Nelson Chase Offline
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On the other hand, the UGCC had full autonomy; it was not under tight reigns or being forced to collaborate with an atheist government.


I was just wondering how one gets the idea the UGCC had full autonomy under the atheist governments? This just seems silly to me. I read the life of Blessed Theodore Romzha and it paints a different picture than full autonomy, more like complete and systematic destruction. While I haven't read Finding a Hidden Church yet I imagine it will also show how the Greek Catholic Church was violently persecuted by the godless Soviets.

Last edited by Nelson Chase; 12/14/09 08:16 PM. Reason: spelling
Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Nelson Chase] #339313 12/14/09 08:42 PM
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I was just wondering how one gets the idea the UGCC had full autonomy under the atheist governments?


It's really very simple: when they take everything you have and drive you underground, they no longer have any hold on you. They might kill you, but they cannot defeat you. It makes sense, in a very paradoxical manner.

Last edited by StuartK; 12/14/09 08:42 PM.
Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: StuartK] #339319 12/14/09 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
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I was just wondering how one gets the idea the UGCC had full autonomy under the atheist governments?


It's really very simple: when they take everything you have and drive you underground, they no longer have any hold on you. They might kill you, but they cannot defeat you. It makes sense, in a very paradoxical manner.


Indeed. Whereas, by contrast, once you have some measure of state sanction by an atheist government you are bound to compromise in some manner. This was true of the MP as well as some Catholic hierarchs in Poland etc.

In terms of a reference earlier in this thread to "soviet times returning", actually I hold out some hope that the Church may inform Russian policy rather than have policy dictated to it. The idea of a Church informing policy may be abhorrent to westerners brought up with the idea of separation of powers, but it is not in an of itself a bad idea.

Re: Pope-Patriarch Meeting [Re: Otsheylnik] #339326 12/14/09 11:41 PM
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Whereas, by contrast, once you have some measure of state sanction by an atheist government you are bound to compromise in some manner. This was true of the MP as well as some Catholic hierarchs in Poland etc.


True. The telling point is how you respond once the oppressor is overthrown. A true Christian would tell the truth, regardless of personal consequences, and would endeavor to atone for whatever compromises were made.

I, too, hold out hope that the Church may become the moral center of Russian life, but I sincerely believe for that to happen, the Russian Orthodox Church must confront the history of the Soviet period in a fully transparent manner.

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