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Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Leo XIII] #341126 01/11/10 12:33 AM
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Respect requires knowledge; without knowing of the EC's, many RC's will presume us schismatic.


Many do.

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The Romans NEED to be educated, just as much as the EC's need to be educated about Rome, to prevent persecutions triggered in ignorance.


I rather think the fish that swim in the sea know a bit more about the sea than the sea knows about the fish.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: aramis] #341128 01/11/10 01:33 AM
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theophan Offline
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Respect requires knowledge; without knowing of the EC's, many RC's will presume us schismatic.

The Romans NEED to be educated, just as much as the EC's need to be educated about Rome, to prevent persecutions triggered in ignorance.


aramis:

Christ is Born!!

Would that this would be so or that it would happen. But don't hold your breath.

The incredible lack of catechesis on some of the most basic doctrines of the Catholic Faith aren't being taught in the catechetical programs currently in place. So how is there any hope for people to gain something beyond the basics--like the fact that there are Catholics who have a different liturgical and spiritual approach to the Mystery of God coming aomong us?

If people don't understand and believe things like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or aren't schooled in things like prayer--that it needs to be done throughout the week and on a regular basis--the idea that there are actions that are "sin" and that "sin" carries consequences, how would we expect them to understand the concept of Eastern Catholics?

I base my poor assessment on my own children who spent their first eight years in Catholic school, went to every program offered in our parish, and from all appearances are unusual in that they both married in the Church and they are their spouses are regular attendees at Sunday and Feast day liturgy. And I've taken every opportunity in their formative years to bring up topics above and beyond what they were taught in parish-based programs.

Sorry to vent tonight, but I'm wondering if I've wasted my time.

BOB

Last edited by theophan; 01/11/10 01:34 AM.
Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Leo XIII] #341130 01/11/10 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo XIII
I, too, came from the Roman tradition but adopted that of the East. I disagree with your statement that "views of latin Catholics are not important to me."

As a young man I used to worry about what other people thought of me, but during a talk I had with my grandfather - shortly before his death from lung cancer - he said something that has stuck with me ever since:

"During my more than 70 years upon this earth I have noticed something . . . a man who seeks respect from others rarely gets it, while a man who simply remains true to his principles tends to be respected."

The Eastern Catholic Churches should be faithful to their liturgical and doctrinal patrimony, and not worry about respect from Latin Catholics, or from any other group.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Leo XIII] #341131 01/11/10 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Leo XIII

Christians are under tremendous assault in this modern world. We must be charitable to each other, and we must stick together. The Lord does not will that there be differences between Christians. He wants us to be one body.


I have the same thought.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: likethethief] #341145 01/11/10 08:25 AM
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Exactly. Whether I like it or not, that is how we're going to have to work. At the moment, churches are being attacked by Muslim government arsonists in Malaysia and Christians, irrespective of denomination are coming together to pray for peace.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Irish Melkite] #341147 01/11/10 10:29 AM
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Dear brother Neil,

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The idea of the EC/OC Churches as 'bridges' between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is a failed one. Despite the fact that the concept virtually never worked, the notion was still being parroted until the 60's or 70's. There was a decided lack of subtlety that usually took the form of those advancing it going on to say 'it gives those Orthodox who want to convert a place that's familiar, where they can feel comfortable'. It was part and parcel of everything that the Orthodox found distasreful about 'uniatism' and contributed significantly to the long delay in our Churches being fully acknowledged as true ecclesial entities, rather than just 'rites'.

I've only been Catholic about 4 years, so I really don't have the experience, complaints or prejudices that some cradle Eastern and Oriental Catholics may have against the Western Church. I don't see the "bridge" concept as an agenda to convert Orthodox to Catholicism. I see the only agenda in the "bridge" concept to be the one that builds understanding. I don't believe anyone who takes on the identity of an "Orthodox in communion with Rome" (such as I do) should be interested in making converts, but should rather be interested in strengthening familial ties.

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If you want evidence that even Rome understands that the 'bridge' role has no underpinnings just consider the fact that most discussions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism have occured with the Catholic side represented solely by Latins. If we were truly a 'bridge', we'd have been sitting in the middle of those; as it has been, our presence has instead been deemed a roadblock and, therefore, we have often, until very recently, not even been invited.

Was that circumstance in the past due to the complaints of the Orthodox or the initiative of the Latins?

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Today, those who still put forth the bridge concept as a viable role for us are generally the same folks who have no trouble accepting second-class status for our Churches in the Catholic Communion and see ultimate unity of the Catholic and Orthodox Communions coming about, not on equal terms, but via submission.

As stated, I am not a cradle Catholic, so I have no concept of what you are saying. My interest has always and only been to promote understanding.

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Call my Church a witness - but not a bridge.

Churches are not bridges, they are homes. Individual people are bridges.

Blessings,
Marduk

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: mardukm] #341150 01/11/10 01:41 PM
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If you want evidence that even Rome understands that the 'bridge' role has no underpinnings just consider the fact that most discussions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism have occured with the Catholic side represented solely by Latins. If we were truly a 'bridge', we'd have been sitting in the middle of those; as it has been, our presence has instead been deemed a roadblock and, therefore, we have often, until very recently, not even been invited.
This may be the case with the two Western Churches - the Eastern Orthodox and the Latin Church - but within the Churches in the Middle East and further East, the Eastern Catholic Churches have not only been involved, but have been catalysts for discussion and union - e.g. Chaldeans and Assyrians, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics, Syro-Malankara Catholics and the Syriac Orthodox in India.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: mardukm] #341186 01/11/10 10:11 PM
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Churches are not bridges, they are homes. Individual people are bridges.


Marduk:

Christ is in our midst!!

Well put!!

BOB

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Apotheoun] #341190 01/11/10 10:48 PM
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Maybe, just maybe, it is important to earn the 'respect' and understanding of us Latins because we're much more likely to get a vague understanding of Orthodox theology from those in communion with us than from elsewhere?

You are right that the most important thing is to remain faithful to the Tradition handed down, but equally important is to spread what has been handed down to us. It has always been my impression that the Church needs both the inquisitive attitude of the West and the sense of mystery preserved by the East (and sadly thrown out entirely by most Latin churches these days!). Maybe respect isn't the issue, but most of my 'Roman' friends don't even have a clue that the other rites exist within our communion and know next to nothing about the Orthodox at all. Since we all ought to be searching for Truth, I don't think that's an ideal state of affairs...

Roll on reunification, but for any oecumenical dialogue we need to know where we are coming from, and to whom we are speaking. It would help a lot.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Precentrix] #341201 01/12/10 12:43 AM
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Actually, the only thing we have to do is be true to our own Tradition, defending it against all illegitimate impositions, "even to the point of schism", to quote Father Lawrence Cross, and to patiently explain, over and over again, whenever someone is ignorant or misunderstands.

As for the so-called "inquisitive" nature of the Western Church, let's remember that for the first 1000 years or so, there was no distinctive Latin school of theology. It was Rome's reflexive conservatism that made it the final authority on the orthodoxy of any new teaching or expression. For a whole millennium, Rome had barely an original idea of its own--and things were good.

Most trouble began when Rome abandoned its traditional role of conservator, and decided that it not only could become a theological innovator, but that it could use its position as Church With Priority to declare those innovations to be normative and attempt to impose them on other Churches.

Also, people cannot be bridges, but people can be witnesses. It is the witness that bridges the gaps.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: StuartK] #341208 01/12/10 03:15 AM
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People can, and are, in fact bridge builders - Pontifexes, if you will. By doing this they witness in a very effective and holy way. What you have said above, I find not only largely untrue, but alienating.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Utroque] #341244 01/12/10 08:42 PM
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Do you think the lack of respect comes from something cultural? It seems to me, from my work with families, that few people have any respect for each other in the family let alone having respect for people in their own community. So how is it that we wonder about respect from one group to another?

I don't know if it's age or what it is, but I find working with the public more and more difficult with each passing year.

BOB

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: theophan] #341251 01/13/10 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by theophan
Do you think the lack of respect comes from something cultural? It seems to me, from my work with families, that few people have any respect for each other in the family let alone having respect for people in their own community. So how is it that we wonder about respect from one group to another?

I don't know if it's age or what it is, but I find working with the public more and more difficult with each passing year.

BOB


Dear BOB,

It could be that, since you are a spiritually mature Christian man who has full knowledge of the seriousness of living a good life and the importance of dying in God's grace, that you find the pettiness which people have intolerable.

My priest was telling us something like that the other day. He is very serious about death and salvation, and he spends much energy ministering to the ill and the dying, as well as to their families. Right now, for instance, in the parish, he has three parisioners, one a teen, one a young married man, and one an older man, dying from cancer. He said that in comparison, he then finds it difficult to minister to the silly petty squabbles and gripes which parishioner families have with each other.

Alice

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Alice] #341254 01/13/10 01:26 AM
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My sentiments exactly Alice! My problem is I usually tell them too.
Stephanos I

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics [Re: Alice] #341281 01/13/10 02:59 PM
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theophan Offline
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. . . full knowledge of the seriousness of living a good life and the importance of dying in God's grace . . .


ALICE:

Christ is Born!! Christ is in our midst!!

I'm humbled. I don't know if that fits me, but I try to live my life before the Face of Christ at every step of the way. The things that I see and hear about people disrespecting their parents, their spouses, their children, their neighbors, their employees--I don't know but it seems to be an epidemic. So my question to my Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brethren was simply borne of observations made over decades of work and living. If we cannot respect each otehr in the family, in the parish, in our own wider Churches, how can we even begin to think we will receive respect from those who still have an "us vs. them" mentality.

Seems to me it's akin to my example of inheritance. Four children are at their mother's wake. She has exactly $1.00 in her estate. Rather than go somehwere and get four quareters and share them, they retreat to the four corners of the room and threaten to beat each other to death for the whole $1.00. Same thing for groups. Rather than reach out in respect and try to learn about, understand, support, and encourage, the tendency is to beat the other group to death--or at least into our own mold.

Father Stephanos--

So true. And I applaud you for your example. When you consider the cross someone else carries--suffering, death of a loved one, etc.--some of the stuff people fight over is enough to make one ill.

BOB

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