Newest Members
Vinolentus, RusOrthCath, Cavaradossi, Roman Interloper, ftbond, NitaMacdonald1930, SOL, etomaria, Kostyantyn, Benny, Ivanov325, DocH, andria, Joe Smith, CanuckK8
4466 Registered Users
Who's Online
7 registered (Thomas the Seeker, JDC, Penthaetria, curtd, Rybak, countertenor, 1 invisible), 198 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Pascha Dublin 2012
Centennial of the Eparchy of Hajdudorog
Hierarchial Divine Liturgy at Holy Trinity Cathedral OCA SF
OLF: What a difference a day makes...
Easter Sunday - Pascha - Velik Den- St. Michael's, Binghamton,NY
Forum Stats
4466 Members
26 Forums
30161 Topics
373770 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Topic Options
#343036 - 02/08/10 03:56 PM Origin of Old-Rite practices...
fatman2021 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 175
Loc: Alaska, USA
What are the origins of the following Old-Rite practices:

Spelling of Jesus: Ісусъ [Isus]

Creed: рожденна, а не сотворенна (begotten but not
made); И в Дѹха Свѧтаго, Господа истиннаго
и Животворѧщаго (And in the Holy Spirit, the
True Lord and Giver of Life)

Sign of the Cross: Two fingers, pointer finger straight, middle
finger bent

Number of Prosphora
in the Liturgy and
Artoclasia: Seven Prosphora

Direction of
Procession: Sunwise (circle left-to-right)

Alleluia: Аллилуїa, аллилуїa, слава Тебѣ, Боже (twice
alleluia, glory to Thee, o God)

Top
#343037 - 02/08/10 04:01 PM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: fatman2021]
PeterPeter Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
I'm no expert but I think that the origins are Greek. Patriarch Nikon wanted to adjust them to contemporary Byzantine practices he perceived original, but actually the Russian practice (taken once from the Greeks) that the Old Rite maintains was "more original". But I may be wrong.

Top
#343038 - 02/08/10 04:09 PM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: PeterPeter]
fatman2021 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 175
Loc: Alaska, USA
Originally Posted By: PeterPeter
I'm no expert but I think that the origins are Greek. Patriarch Nikon wanted to adjust them to contemporary Byzantine practices he perceived original, but actually the Russian practice (taken once from the Greeks) that the Old Rite maintains was "more original". But I may be wrong.


Yes I know that much, but I am looking for verifiable sources such as the writings of various Church Fathers.

Top
#343039 - 02/08/10 04:35 PM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: fatman2021]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Much of the problem has to do with the difficulty of gaining access to the (presumably) relevant Greek manuscripts. The ones in Italy are accessible, but the ones held by the Ecumenical Patriarchate are not. Still, one can learn quite a lot from pre-revolutionary books giving detailed history of liturgical texts, and by comparing the present Greek editions, the Nikonian editions, and the Old-Rite editions.

All this requires linguistic ability, naturally.

Fr. Serge

Top
#343117 - 02/09/10 06:33 PM What is the Ecumenical Patriarchate hiding? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
fatman2021 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 175
Loc: Alaska, USA
Quote:
Much of the problem has to do with the difficulty of gaining access to the (presumably) relevant Greek manuscripts. The ones in Italy are accessible, but the ones held by the Ecumenical Patriarchate are not. Still, one can learn quite a lot from pre-revolutionary books giving detailed history of liturgical texts, and by comparing the present Greek editions, the Nikonian editions, and the Old-Rite editions.

All this requires linguistic ability, naturally.

Fr. Serge


If the Ecumenical Patriarchate has nothing to hide then why do thy make gaining access to the relevant Greek manuscripts so difficult.


Edited by fatman2021 (02/09/10 06:34 PM)

Top
#343247 - 02/11/10 12:57 PM Re: What is the Ecumenical Patriarchate hiding? [Re: fatman2021]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
A reasonable question, to put it mildly. Having never had access to the library/archive of the Patriarchate, I don't know what it is they are guarding - but it's not just a matter of the pre-Nikonian Liturgy; there are quite a number of other questions whose answers might well be in that collection.

Fr. Serge

Top
#343282 - 02/11/10 05:56 PM Re: What is the Ecumenical Patriarchate hiding? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher
A reasonable question, to put it mildly. Having never had access to the library/archive of the Patriarchate, I don't know what it is they are guarding - but it's not just a matter of the pre-Nikonian Liturgy; there are quite a number of other questions whose answers might well be in that collection.

Fr. Serge


Probably Greeks are wary of allowing Western scholars access to precious materials. They have had experience of the pilfering of valuable manuscripts by people whom you would not expect to stoop to theft... but the temptation seems irresitable......

Top
#347609 - 05/04/10 10:25 AM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: fatman2021]
Elpidophoros Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/21/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ellas
Originally Posted By: fatman2021

Number of Prosphora
in the Liturgy and
Artoclasia: Seven Prosphora


It's not ture.Seven prosphora for liturgy,YES. for artoklasia,NO.Old rite also use FIVE for artoklasia.

Top
#347621 - 05/04/10 12:48 PM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: Elpidophoros]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Strictly speaking, the Old Rite simply retains the texts and customs of the Russian Church prior to the Nikonian reform; there are few if any practices invented by and unique to the Old-Ritualists.

Fr. Serge

Top
#347690 - 05/05/10 04:01 PM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
Matta Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 435
Loc: Australia
While it might be difficult to gain entry into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's library, it is not the case for the wonderful library in the monastery of Mount Sinai.

I have been through it; one must merely ask one of the monks for a book. The very old documents and scrolls they may prefer to handle themselves, though.

Of course, you have to get there first, though! smile

Top
#347699 - 05/05/10 05:27 PM Re: Origin of Old-Rite practices... [Re: Matta]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Alas, I have not been to Mt. Sinai and at my age in in my arthritic condition I am not planning to go there. So someone else will have to go and compare old Greek texts with pre-Nikonian Church-Slavonic texts.

Fr. Serge

Top



Moderator:  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2012. All rights reserved.