The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Vigilante, Poliscifi, The Cub, P H, Hardrada
5603 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 registered members (1 invisible), 58 guests, and 537 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
OL EuroEast II (2007) Group
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,738
Posts411,956
Members5,603
Most Online2,716
Jun 7th, 2012
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism #343217 02/11/10 06:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Slavipodvizhnik Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
http://www.geotimes.ge/index.php?m=home&newsid=20199

We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism



As swine flu took hold in the West, many countries reportedly installed holy water sterilizing machines in Catholic Churches. Scientists have not yet explained the miracle of holy water, which has unique properties it maintains for a whole year. The question is, if a person is so irreligious that he is afraid of catching “Pig Flu” from holy water what purpose do his visits to church serve?

Faith does not obey the laws of reason. Nor does arguing about which religion is better than another. This is a matter of belief, and you can never explain to anyone else why your belief is better than theirs. This is why people of other faiths peacefully co-exist with the Orthodox in Georgia.

In Georgia people did not only uphold their own values but took the same attitude towards the values of others. When King David the Builder prohibited the slaughtering of pigs in Moslem districts this was not a gesture of tolerance. It was an acknowledgment of the legal culture and principles of that community. King of Kartli Vakhtang VI included the traditional laws of the Jewish, Armenian and Greek inhabitants of Georgia in his collection of laws (these had been practiced well before the King wrote these laws between 1705 and 1709). This move gave Georgians the opportunity to judge cases according to laws appropriate to the community offended against by the alleged lawbreaker.

“We have collected noble books and chosen from them the parts we believe are appropriate for the sake of justice,” Vakhtang VI stated. He added, however, that foreign laws should not likewise extend to the people of Kartli as the “rules and behaviour of Georgians are not similar to those of other countries.” Georgians do not force others to live against their beliefs and values and do not do so themselves.

Today local liberals often talk about the Orthodox Church 'interfering' in political life, saying this is inadmissible. They often cite the principle of secularism - separating State and Church from each another, with neither interfering in the other's affairs. No one disputes that this is a valid idea. But despite this no one condemned Pope John Paul II when he interfered in the political affairs of Poland in support of democracy, although as a direct result of his action the public threw their support behind Solidarity and the political system there changed. When the West wanted to win, the principle of non-interference went out of the window. The same double standard was also applied to Georgian nationalism. The West thought this was a good thing when it could use it to dismantle the USSR, but building an independent state on this basis was declared inadmissible.

Sometimes it is difficult to understand the aggression Georgian liberals show towards “Motherland, Language, Faith”, but this is another expression of their double standards. They do not condemn the State interfering in the affairs of the Georgian Orthodox Church, only the other way round. Furthermore they expect the Patriarch to justify his actions but not the State. They ask naively, "Do we not have the right to ask questions?" Of course, everyone has that right, but no liberal questioned the Government's zero tolerance of opposition, or indeed valid questions. They did not question how many millions had been spent on building the President’s residence. They do not question the increased number of shootings of young people, why the number of prisoners has increased to 30,000, nor the strategic facilities of the country being sold off. Where did Kakha Bendukidze disappear to during the August 2008 war? He who says he does not know what strategic facilities are? If they don't exist why the Government tell us during the war that the Russians were deliberately bombing them?

While they see no need to comment on these issues, they are concerned about the Government supporting the Church from the Budget. Not long ago a priest told me that when he was studying at the seminary in the 1970s he was sitting on the windowsill and saw Patriarch David V being driven into the yard and said - His Holiness has come by car! The Patriarch called him over during a break and said, "My son, consider this and then answer me - if Our Saviour had had a car would he have entered Jerusalem on foot?"

We are reminded of double standards every day. As the Georgian proverb goes: you can put a handle on a pot on whichever side you like. An expensive concert is given in Guria “to attract investment”, in Ukraine a group of Georgian election observers, entirely unqualified for this job, behaves lawlessly, farces are held under the name of elections which are then declared an indisputable victory for the Government, and this all passes without comment. Does all this happen by chance? Are these double standards unconscious or wilful? What good is a liberalism which allows a narrow circle to do what it wants but abuses everyone else?

Today the phrase "true Orthodox believers" is often used sarcastically. Talking about religious fundamentalism and “ignorance” as the same thing has become very fashionable in liberal circles. People say that reform of the Orthodox Church is inevitable and its theology needs to be updated but these statements are purely political, they are not the product of a desire to help the Church. In the West the Protestant work ethic is regarded as the “machine of capitalism”, so it is said that if you want to build a capitalist country you should adopt Protestant ethics. It is clear that an Orthodox believer cannot do this. That is why attempts to “modernise” Orthodoxy do not stop.

Weber’s 'Protestant Work Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism' demonstrates that this work ethic leads to an extreme vulgarism which will never become part of the Georgian consciousness and cannot replace Orthodoxy. A world of extreme social inequalities, desperate poverty and excessive luxury, moral relativism, a Darwinist fight for survival, sacrificing other people for your own prosperity and a complete lack of principle is the monster disguised by the labels of Liberalism and Capitalism.

The complete neglect of national values in the education system is another problem and to satisfy the demands for these the Orthodox Church is welcoming increasing numbers of people. The Patriarch’s epistles are increasingly becoming the guidebooks for people who have lost everything and are now afraid of losing even their graves. Under capitalism, if you are a poor person it is your own fault and not the fault of the person who has grabbed your property, and only the rich can achieve justice; it is a world where competition must be maintained but not the Orthodox principles which should underpin social relations and where an aggressive minority sets rules to suit itself using the majority's name, thus displaying there is no actual good and moral principle they can refer to.

Some think that religion and faith are purely a means of cultural identification. In fact they provide a firm system of values, and trying to dismantle this is far more dangerous than changing political ideologies. The word 'ideology' has become discredited, like many other words, since the collapse of the USSR. When this happened people really thought that the era of non-ideology had come but in fact one ruling ideology has simply been replaced by another.

It took us years to realise that Liberalism and Marxism are two sides of the same coin, both eroding the historic character of nations. In Marxism history is the ultimate arbiter, in Liberalism it is the individual. Marxism is openly atheistic, liberalism hides its attitude towards religion but also tries as hard as Marxism to oppress it. You are allowed to be religious yourself but must not tell anyone else about it, 'imposing' its restrictive values in a world where, allegedly, anything goes. What is worse - openly declared war or pharisaic “freedom” of faith?

Both Marxism and Liberalism seek to destroy nation states and create a global universe. Georgia is a country from the old universe, which has restored its state after the collapse of the USSR. Our country cannot adjust to either of these two ideologies. Opposing the Orthodox Church is an ideological trick which serves to inculcate into this country values which are as alien to Georgians as Communism. The difference between the two is that we know Communism from experience, but have not yet seen what the full flowering of a liberal state will subject us to, thus making it appear the lesser evil.

The saying “an idle mind is the playground of demons” is very well known and its truth is manifest in the minds of fundamentalists of any ideology. Liberalism absorbed unthinkingly from other models during two months in the West is a demon we should immediately resist.

Alexandr

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #343228 02/11/10 12:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
A good course in history and another in political philosophy will clear up all this muddled thinking, Alexandr.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: StuartK] #343244 02/11/10 05:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 646
domilsean Offline
Orthodox domilsean
Member
Offline
Orthodox domilsean
Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 646
Stuart,

which muddled thinking is that?

Alexandr is completely right that the choice must be made between Orthodoxy and Liberalism. The West has succumbed to Protestant ideas and liberalism, not to mention paganism and demonism. Look at how readily our culture accepts Yoga, a hindu spiritism practice.

I suggest you read Fr. Seraphim Rose's Orthodox and the Religion of the Future. You'll see just where we are in this battle. Georgia is just the next front line.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: domilsean] #343246 02/11/10 05:40 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Terry Bohannon Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Aledandr is not the author of the essay.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: StuartK] #343273 02/11/10 09:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Slavipodvizhnik Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Originally Posted by StuartK
A good course in history and another in political philosophy will clear up all this muddled thinking, Alexandr.


And where will you be taking these courses, Stuart?

Alexandr

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #343274 02/11/10 09:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 545
U
Utroque Offline
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 545
My wife just returned from the third Rome. That's not the one I mean. Reports that it's worse than NYC without the diversity.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Utroque] #343276 02/11/10 10:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 206
Kathleen Elsie Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 206
My family and I have FAITH that we will never be made ill from Holy Water or the BODY & BLOOD of our Lord. Sadly the vast majority of the people I know do not think this way.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Kathleen Elsie] #343280 02/11/10 10:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 545
U
Utroque Offline
Member
Offline
Member
U
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 545
Nor do I believe they will, but if you leave Holy Water in a bowl long enough it will evaporate. It can also harbor microbes and such that can make you sick. I sympathize with peoples' fears and precautions. It is no sin to be rational.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Utroque] #343293 02/12/10 02:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
StuartK Offline
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Quote
And where will you be taking these courses, Stuart?


You so very funny, Alexandr. Unfortunately, your Russocentric panslavic paranoia is not.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: StuartK] #343295 02/12/10 03:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Slavipodvizhnik Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
I do not claim to be funny. What is truly not funny are your constant jabs at Russia, Orthodoxy and anyone who does not kow-tow to your inflated sense of self worth.


Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #343298 02/12/10 03:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,468
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,468
With all due respect, Alexandr, you tend to present Russia as some holy place where everyone is Orthodox, worships regularly, and lives the Orthodox life. While Orthodoxy has indeed become re-invigorated after the fall of the communists, the vast majority of Russians are not practicing Orthodox, and many are Orthodox in name only. The Church in Russia still has much work to do and will always have much work to do.

I can agree with several of the points the author of the article you posted makes, but he is incorrect in some points of history and a lot of the things he says are neither accurate nor logical. It is very much just a tirade against things that are bothering him. With a bit of good logic and history the article could be reworked into something.

Among other things, the author says that "local liberals often talk about the Orthodox Church 'interfering' in political life, saying this is inadmissible" but he does not describe who the "local liberals" are, what they believe in, what the Orthodox Church has said that these people find to be "interfering", why it is considered to be "interfering" and etc. I can envision a situation where the "liberals" are atheistic secularists to whom the Orthodox bishops are speaking correctly. I can also envision a situation where the "liberals" are way off the path but where the bishops are responding without understanding (good heavens - the Catholic bishops here in the United States certainly do that often enough when they engage in group-think). The author does not give enough information to inform us.

I expect the "Georgian (religious) values" he wishes be upheld were forgotten during the communist days. The chaos left from the Russian Communists will take generations to undo, and evangelization is very necessary, as well as good education. But one needs to also have a good understanding of economic models, and not just unfactual negative characterizations of them.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Administrator] #343299 02/12/10 03:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Father Borislav Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Forgive me John, but Stuart takes very opportunity to take a jab at Orthodox and he has been also very hateful towards Russia.

For those of us who love the Orthodox Church and love the Russian people his posts are rather offensive.

He also seems to be very angry...


Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Father Borislav] #343300 02/12/10 04:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,468
Administrator Offline
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,468
Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
Forgive me John, but Stuart takes very opportunity to take a jab at Orthodox and he has been also very hateful towards Russia.

For those of us who love the Orthodox Church and love the Russian people his posts are rather offensive.

He also seems to be very angry...

No, I disagree. While Stuart's posts are sometimes curt to the extreme of being uncharitable he has never taken a jab at Orthodoxy or been hateful to Russia. He does take jabs at those who misrepresent both, but also treats all Churches and subjects the same way. Read what he writes and don't make a caricature of what he writes.

Orthodoxy - like Catholicism and all religions - is full of people trying to work out their salvation. Sometimes even believers make mistakes, are sinners, and are hypocrites. Catholics and others regularly have their failings pointed out on this forum. Orthodoxy is no different and being Orthodox does not raise one above legitimate criticism.

I would re-read some of his posts. He criticizes what people say, the people themselves, or what they do that is alien to Orthodoxy (or whatever the topic). If he or anyone criticizes unjustly, the best response to to challenge the criticism, to explain what is unjust and to invite that poster to rethink and repost. Certainly in this thread Stuart's posts are accurate, if curt.

Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Administrator] #343301 02/12/10 04:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
Slavipodvizhnik Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,735
I hate to disagree John, but what I try to present is the concept of a "Holy Russia". Modern secular Russia, for all of it's faults, and I agree there are many, is at least pointed in the right direction, although the distance to go is vast. The West, on the other hand, not that it is lacking in an inherent "holiness" of it's own design, appears, at least to me, to be pointed in the opposite direction.

I did not author the article at hand. But I felt the author did have some valid points, if presented in a somewhat awkward and unpolished way.

John, you seem to see more shades of grey than I do. The best economic and social policies ever penned by man, if they come from a marxist-socialist/diabolical source, are unacceptable to me, no matter how well presented or munificent in their outcome they are.




Re: We Will Have To Choose Between Orthodoxy and Liberalism [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #343304 02/12/10 06:09 AM
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,157
There is no "Holy Russia", just as there is no "Holy" anywhere else. Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, and it is a failure that we do not remember this and canonize our homelands.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2019 (Forum 1998-2019). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3