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Gay Bishop-Elect #34336 08/04/03 12:51 PM
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Joe T Offline OP
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Here is the latest with the Episcopalians:

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Gay Bishop-Elect Wins 1st of 2 Last Votes
Sun Aug 3, 7:07 PM ET
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer

MINNEAPOLIS - A New Hampshire clergyman moved a step closer Sunday to becoming the first openly gay elected bishop in the Episcopal Church, winning one of two final votes required to be confirmed.

The House of Deputies, a legislative body composed of clergy and lay people, voted to approve the Rev. V. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire. He faces a final vote Monday in the House of Bishops.

The House of Deputies voted by delegation, with 128 delegations voting yes and 63 voting no. The votes of 25 delegations were not counted because their members were divided.

The American Anglican Council, which represents conservative bishops and parishes, said it was "deeply grieved" by the results.

"It is a tragic decision that leads the Episcopal Church to the brink of shattering the Anglican Communion," the council said in a statement. Episcopalians form the U.S. branch of the 77-million-member communion.

Robinson, a 56-year-old divorced father of two, has lived with his partner, Mark Andrew, for 13 years. If he is confirmed at this week's Episcopal General Convention, it will have an impact far beyond his diocese.

Bishops who believe gay sex is a sin contend that allowing him to serve is a tacit endorsement of ordaining homosexuals. These conservatives said it would force them to consider leaving the church, weakening the denomination and sparking a bitter fight over parish property and funds.

Like-minded bishops in the Anglican Communion have said they, too, would consider severing ties with the American church over Robinson.

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The entire article can be read at today's Yahoo! News.

Will the Roman Cathollic Church get a few more married clergy out of this? When the Episcopalians began ordaining women decades ago the Catholic Church was ready to receive those clergy who left in protest. On the other hand, when Rome keeps telling our bishops not to ordain married men (and they willingly comply), our clergy and seminarians leave in protest and go to the Orthodox. Someone once said that those who leave a church leave so not because of theological reasons, but because of treatment or lack thereof. Is this true? Is it always greener on the other side? or do some just make this side so much browner? Do you think an election of a gay bishop (divorced too) will tear the Episcopal Church asunder?

Comments?

Joe

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34337 08/04/03 01:38 PM
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Joe,

To be honest I think there will be BIG trouble ahead if they do.

Remember recently there has been the 'problem' of the proposal of one over here. Such a furore ensued that the Canon concerned decided to refuse the appointment.

Having said that , I can't honestly see that happen in the case in question.

If he is appointed - well - no doubt there will be a few more Episcopal Priests leaving and who knows where they will go. Maybe there will be more married RC Clergy - who knows.

And as to the rest - well I'll keep my opinions to myself and bow out now.

Anhelyna

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34338 08/04/03 01:44 PM
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Some of the justification I heard from people endorsing this are simply disgusting. Stuff to the effect of: "The Scriptures need to be interpreted through a more contemporary lense." Instead of conforming to God's laws, they bend them to suit their own sinful lifestyles. As if GD'S laws change!

I guess G-D was just being intolerant when HE inspired Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1.

Simply appalling; but I guess this is what happens when you leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, as the English church did some 400 years ago.

For sure, the Catholic Church has not been immune from abusive clergy, but I can't see an open, PRACTICING homosexual becoming a Catholic or Orthodox bishop anytime soon.

Columcille

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34339 08/04/03 02:00 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Columcille:
Simply appalling; but I guess this is what happens when you leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, as the English church did some 400 years ago.
Columcille,

Nope. I don't think sin is monopolized by non-Catholics. One can still be a member of Pax Christi and be in good standing with the Catholilc Church. wink

Whatever happened to the days when we heard more on the goods of marriage (between a man and a woman)? Has Christianity lost its ability to speak? Someone once told me that sex no longer has a home in marriage and marriage no longer has a home in Christianity. Is this true? or should homosexuality and pedophilia just be considered an "Oops!" in ecclesial polity and praxis?

Joe

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34340 08/04/03 02:03 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
If he is appointed - well - no doubt there will be a few more Episcopal Priests leaving and who knows where they will go. Maybe there will be more married RC Clergy - who knows.
Do yo think pictures of married clergy accepted by Rome will be "splashed" all over in the media? Will those Latin bishps accepting former Episcopalian clergy be thought of as staging a "showdown" with Byzantine Catholic bishops and the yoke of mandatory celibacy they willfully comply with?

Joe

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34341 08/04/03 02:05 PM
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double post deleted

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34342 08/04/03 02:21 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by J Thur:
Quote
Originally posted by Columcille:
[b]Simply appalling; but I guess this is what happens when you leave the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, as the English church did some 400 years ago.
Columcille,

Nope. I don't think sin is monopolized by non-Catholics. One can still be a member of Pax Christi and be in good standing with the Catholilc Church. wink

Whatever happened to the days when we heard more on the goods of marriage (between a man and a woman)?

Joe [/b]
You are right, of course. I was simply making mention that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches wouldn't, indeed, couldn't elect a openly practicing homosexual to be a bishop. The Holy Spirit prevents such things.

Columcille

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34343 08/04/03 02:34 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Columcille:
I was simply making mention that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches wouldn't, indeed, couldn't elect a openly practicing homosexual to be a bishop. The Holy Spirit prevents such things.

Columcille
Sin is still sin, hence the need for cover-ups, Holy Spirit or no Holy Spirit.

Joe

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34344 08/04/03 02:42 PM
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Geez,Im glad I wasn't baptised episcopalian.Maybe things like this happening will be a good thing for the Catholic and Orthodox churches.It might spark some conflict within people and make them consider finding another church.Lets pray that they join an apostolic church.
Michael a sinner

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34345 08/04/03 03:15 PM
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Logos - Alexis Offline
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That's what I'm sayin, Mike.

Hey y'all,

Where is Fr. Kimel? Is he still on his break?

Logos Teen

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34346 08/04/03 03:36 PM
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Greetings All,

First James Pike, then Spong, now this! Some parts of that church seem to us like a rotting carcass. I am sorry about the strong imagery, but nothing else comes to mind.

I used to think the Episcopal church U.S.A was already an empty suit, but after reading some deeply spiritual and well-studied postings here from our contributing Episcopalian I have learned my error. Of course, we all know that there are Holy and Godly people in the Episcopal church in the USA. This must be a terrible crisis for them all.

But this is a multiple problem for all Christians. The Anglican Communion may very well split over this, but if so this cannot be very good in the long run because the ECUSA is not going to fold up it's tent. It will continue out there claiming an Apostolic origin and spreading this garbage. A real loose cannon, and as more of the orthodox thinking Christians leave that church the more extreme their position will become. It would have been preferable if the church had reunited with the Catholic or an Orthodox communion before now. That would have had a stabilizing effect and given it an orthodox teaching authority.

A huge percentage of modern North Americans are deciding what they want to believe first, and then seeking a church that will accommodate them. Many of my own relatives and friends will visit an Episcopalian church and exclaim (as they have) that “it's just like the Catholic church, what could be so bad about that?” and they are totally confused by the externals. These people have never absorbed the idea that the teaching of the Apostles and Fathers is passed essentially intact to us and that we might not appreciate what we learn at first but we need it to be true.

We need the Real Presence, we need the Magisterium, and we must strive to be holy.

In Christ,
Michael, that sinner

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34347 08/04/03 06:54 PM
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Joe , I said that I was staying out of this for what to me were excellent reasons [ and I did not give my reasons - just said that <<well I'll keep my opinions to myself and bow out now.>> ]
my reasons are
1 I'm RC
2 I was an Anglican
3 I'm a Brit and I think I should keep my nose out of this one.
Nothing I have said or will say will make an iota of difference.

However on another Site I did pick up something very interesting . This is a Blog from someone who is at the Convention. There is a lot of reading in it.

http://www.holycross.net/daily.htm

Having said my say and posted that I will now vanish from this debate.

Anhelyna

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34348 08/04/03 07:46 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Joe , I said that I was staying out of this
Angela,

Notice that my reply was not directed to you personally. You brought up interesting points though. You got me thinking about how Rome is so worried about our bishops ordaining married men and then "splashing" pics of them all over. What is so horrible about a married man? Its one thing for society to be against marriage; its another thing for the churches to have contempt for them. The recent scandals only show that the pot CAN call the kettle black and get away with it.

My parents just attended one of their cousin's 40th wedding anniversary/moleben out of town at an ACROD church. They met several priests who were married (they introduced their wives to them) and were former Byzantine Catholic clergy. They seemed quite happy. They weren't allowed to get ordained as married priests in our church (because our bishops willingly comply with absentee, pencil-pushing bullies) so they found happiness elsewhere where marriage is not frowned upon.

Joe

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34349 08/04/03 08:11 PM
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Update per Yahoo! News:

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Episcopalians Delay Vote on Gay Bishop
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer

MINNEAPOLIS - Episcopal leaders delayed a vote Monday on whether to confirm the church's first openly gay bishop after allegations involving "touching" and "pornography" emerged against the clergyman, a church spokesman said ...

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Episcopalian Vote on Gay Bishop Postponed
By Sarah Tippit

MINNEAPOLIS, Minn. (Reuters) - Episcopalian bishops suddenly put off a planned vote on Monday on the church's first openly gay bishop, and one of his supporters said it was because of an accusation of sexual misconduct.

A copy of an e-mail obtained by Reuters that was sent to Vermont Bishop Thomas Ely from a man identified as David Lewis accused New Hampshire bishop-elect Gene Robinson of being a "skirt-chaser" who fondled him two years ago ...

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Joe

Re: Gay Bishop-Elect #34350 08/04/03 08:47 PM
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Dear Mr. Thur,
While I agree with you about the misguided nature of the prohibition on ordaining married men in certain BC jurisdictions, I must take issue with the notion that it is because marriage is "frowned upon" in the west.
As Pius XII explains in his magnificent encyclical on priestly celibacy, the celibate priest reserves his whole self for God alone--and receives due recompense from the Lord Who always takes care of His own. Through abstinence from sexual union, the priest reserves his soul and his body for his life of transforming union with God. He is not denied fatherhood--ask any FAITHFUL celibate priest if he feels cheated of fatherhood. On the contrary, every priest begets spiritual children in abundance, and is devoted to them in a unique way through his celibacy. Men with sexually deviant tendencies are thus unfit for the priesthood. Although homosexuals are called to live chastely, and given the grace to do so, they are not called to the priesthood, which requires a clear male sexual identity for spiritual fatherhood (and involves many occasions of sin for the man who is subject to certain temptations).
The Latin Church has always had an exalted understanding of the married vocation, and any insinuation to the contrary is laughable. The separation between the married and priestly lives does not imply that the former way of life is in any way frowned upon.
Nevertheless, I think you ARE right about allowing the ordination of married men in the Eastern jurisdictions--in his same encyclical on celibacy, Pius specifies that he is not knocking the Eastern custom.
I just wanted to clarify the western understanding of celibacy and marriage.
I apologize in advance for any offense given--someimes I am a poor judge of tone in written posts.

In Jesus and Mary's Hearts,
LatinTrad

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