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#344362 - 02/27/10 09:11 PM Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos
Dr. Eric Offline
Catholic Gyoza
Member

Registered: 11/17/05
Posts: 4506
Loc: The Most Corrupt State
Originally Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik
Judging by the throngs that showed up to meet the Kurskaya Mother of God, I'd say things are looking pretty good.

[img]http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kursk-icon-procession.jpg?w=1024&h=683[/img]

Alexandr


I love Liturgical Blue!


Edited by Irish Melkite (02/28/10 09:02 PM)
Edit Reason: Retitled

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#344372 - 02/27/10 11:28 PM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Dr. Eric]
Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Dr. Eric
Originally Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik
Judging by the throngs that showed up to meet the Kurskaya Mother of God, I'd say things are looking pretty good.

[img]http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kursk-icon-procession.jpg?w=1024&h=683[/img]

Alexandr


I love Liturgical Blue!


Not for me!

The colours of the Mother of God are warm browns and ochres and russet reds. Look at her icons. The colours are warm colours, earth colours, colours of motherhood. Her glory is in her motherhood of her Son.

The adoption of the blue of virginity is an imitation of a Western preference, the blue and white statues of the Virgin Mary. It contradicts the traditional Orthodox intuitive choice of colours to reflect the glory of Mary's motherhood. Blue is, I suppose one could say, a voluntary adoption by the Orthodox of a latinisation!

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#344375 - 02/28/10 12:58 AM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted By: Dr. Eric
Originally Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik
Judging by the throngs that showed up to meet the Kurskaya Mother of God, I'd say things are looking pretty good.

[img]http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kursk-icon-procession.jpg?w=1024&h=683[/img]

Alexandr


I love Liturgical Blue!


Not for me!

The colours of the Mother of God are warm browns and ochres and russet reds. Look at her icons. The colours are warm colours, earth colours, colours of motherhood. Her glory is in her motherhood of her Son.

The adoption of the blue of virginity is an imitation of a Western preference, the blue and white statues of the Virgin Mary. It contradicts the traditional Orthodox intuitive choice of colours to reflect the glory of Mary's motherhood. Blue is, I suppose one could say, a voluntary adoption by the Orthodox of a latinisation!


The majority of the mosaics in Hagia Sophia portray the Theotokos in blue.
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#344377 - 02/28/10 03:48 AM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose
Originally Posted By: Dr. Eric
[quote=Slavipodvizhnik]Judging by the throngs that showed up to meet the Kurskaya Mother of God, I'd say things are looking pretty good.

[img]http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kursk-icon-procession.jpg?w=1024&h=683[/img]

Alexandr


I love Liturgical Blue!


Not for me!

The colours of the Mother of God are warm browns and ochres and russet reds. Look at her icons. The colours are warm colours, earth colours, colours of motherhood. Her glory is in her motherhood of her Son.

The adoption of the blue of virginity is an imitation of a Western preference, the blue and white statues of the Virgin Mary. It contradicts the traditional Orthodox intuitive choice of colours to reflect the glory of Mary's motherhood. Blue is, I suppose one could say, a voluntary adoption by the Orthodox of a latinisation!


Quote:
The majority of the mosaics in Hagia Sophia portray the Theotokos in blue.


Agia Sophia is simply an exception to the norm, Christ Himself is portrayed in blue there.

One will not find blue in the canonical tradition of iconographical depiction of the Mother of God. Refer to the various iconpainters' handbooks, Greek and Russian.

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#344382 - 02/28/10 12:43 PM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
Hagia Sophia is the original norm. One will find the Theotokos often with an inner robe of blue with a red mantle over top symbolizing she contained the divinity(blue-the color of the heavens) within her humanity(red-the color of blood). Just as one will often find Christ with an inner robe of red covered by a mantle of blue, symbolizing he clothed our humanity with his divinity. And of course one will find examples for both with the colors reversed.
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#344383 - 02/28/10 01:26 PM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
Among wonder-working icons showing the Theotokos with a blue outer robe are those of Ostrobramskaya, Czestochowa, Akhtyrskaya, Perpetual Help, Soufanieh, Novonikita and many of those of the Tender Mercy type including Pskov.
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#344395 - 02/28/10 04:00 PM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance]
Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance
Among wonder-working icons showing the Theotokos with a blue outer robe are those of Ostrobramskaya, Czestochowa, Akhtyrskaya, Perpetual Help, Soufanieh, Novonikita and many of those of the Tender Mercy type including Pskov.


I am aware that most of these are not Orthodox icons but originate with Catholic sources or come from a mixed Catholic-Orthodox influence..

For example..

Ostrobramskaya is Lithuanian Catholic and painted in 1630.

It is a very important marker of Lithuanian Catholic identity. Please see the article on Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_the_Gate_of_Dawn

This and a few of the others you mention became known and venerated by some of the Orthodox population living in the areas of Polish government.

Akhtyrskaya comes from Akhtyrka, a Polish city in the Ukraine. Its composition is very untraditional by an Orthodox standard and it is assumed to have been painted by a Ukrainian Catholic.

Perpetual Succour (called by Orthodox "of the Thumb" or "of the Passion.") On Orthodox icons you will see the traditional Orthodox colour scheme. Catholics reverse the colours in this icon so that the blue becomes the dominant colour..

Soufanieh is a latinised version of the Russian Kazan Mother of God created by Catholics in Lebanon. The colours have been reversed there also and the red of divinity is incorrectly used on her inner garment and the blue has been used for her outer garment. See an example of the correct colouring here http://www.bai.org.uk/images/MotherOfGodOfKazan.jpg

The icons you have chosen are not representative of the Orthodox depiction of the Mother of God. Most Orthodox will eschew icons which depict her with blue as the primary colour, i.e., her outer garment. If you have time you could look on the Net for examples, or even better, examine one of the Iconpainter's Manuals, modern or ancient, either from Greece or Russia and see the rules for colour which the iconographical tradition requires.

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#344399 - 02/28/10 05:09 PM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
Chtec Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 1933
Loc: Sharon/Hermitage, PA
Many traditional and historic (i.e. non-Latin inspired) icons in Constantinople show the Mother of God in a rich, deep blue maphorion. Deacon Lance mentioned Hagia Sophia. In the apse and elsewhere in the church, she is in blue:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turke...2-c-osseman.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turke...rs-yorck-pd.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turke...ic-c-hbetts.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turkey/istanbul-hagia-sophia-photos/slides/exit-c-osseman.jpg

In the Deisis mosaic, she is shown in deep reddish-purple:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/619216531_8c6ba3b2da_o.jpg


Then there's Chora:

http://www.carlrollinsblog.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/chora.jpg

http://e-turkey.net/turkeyguide/d/3283-5/istanbul_kariye_museum_chora_church_00073.jpg

I would be hesitant to classify these monuments of Byzantine iconography as Latinizations. smile

David

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#344401 - 02/28/10 05:57 PM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Chtec]
Hieromonk Ambrose Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 1219
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Chtec
Many traditional and historic (i.e. non-Latin inspired) icons in Constantinople show the Mother of God in a rich, deep blue maphorion. Deacon Lance mentioned Hagia Sophia. In the apse and elsewhere in the church, she is in blue:

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turke...2-c-osseman.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turke...rs-yorck-pd.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turke...ic-c-hbetts.jpg

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/turkey/istanbul-hagia-sophia-photos/slides/exit-c-osseman.jpg

In the Deisis mosaic, she is shown in deep reddish-purple:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/619216531_8c6ba3b2da_o.jpg


Then there's Chora:

http://www.carlrollinsblog.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/chora.jpg

http://e-turkey.net/turkeyguide/d/3283-5/istanbul_kariye_museum_chora_church_00073.jpg

I would be hesitant to classify these monuments of Byzantine iconography as Latinizations. smile

David


The question is: in what colours is the Mother of God depicted 99% of the time? After all, I can send you examples of her depicted in full Muslim black!! smile

What colours are specified by the Iconpainters' Manuals ancient and modern? What colours are iconographers instructed to employ?

Quote:
I would be hesitant to classify these monuments of Byzantine iconography as Latinizations.


Indeed, I have not noticed anybody doing that but it would be most foolish.

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#344428 - 03/01/10 04:33 AM Re: Blue in Iconography Depicting the Theotokos [Re: Hieromonk Ambrose]
aramis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
I've always seen the Bohorodicen in blue, sometimes with red as well, in both Cathoic and RO-OCA parishes. Always blue; sometimes with red over or under; never red alone.

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