Site Links
ByzCath.org Home
Latest News
Liturgical Calendar
Lectionary
Newest Members
Marjoe, comsiemaize, jbarpdaf, Pedro67, GermanMelkite, rfp731, FedEdge, MDecerbo, bookgrl, EastMeetsWest, redhead, runfairfax, gneArberesh, Paul Chekan, fal-nus-ghee86
3893 Registered Users
Who's Online
4 registered (jjp, Jakub., Irish Melkite, Luvr of East), 67 Guests and 31 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Private Forums
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums: The Deacon's Door (for deacons and deacon candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum (for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for access at forum@byzcath.org.
Latest Photo
St Thomas Byzantine Catholic Gilbert, Arizona
Forum Stats
3893 Members
22 Forums
27215 Topics
346089 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Topic Options
#344740 - 03/06/10 10:00 AM The Daily Cycle
EJKlages Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 271
Loc: Oak Ridge, Tennessee
Fr. Petras' Typicon contains the following note:
During the Great Fast, the daily cycle runs from Matins to Vespers. The commemoration of the saint of the day, however, follows the system of the rest of the year, from Vespers to the Ninth Hour.

This comment has always baffled me, since the texts in the Triodion contain the theme of the "following" day. For example, the stichera at the Lamplighting Psalms on Wednesday evening refer to the Apostles, those on Thursday evening have the cross as a theme, etc. This seems to contradict his first statement, and I can think of no way to reconcile the two.

Wednesday of last week (2/24) the Presanctified Liturgy also contained readings for the Finding of the Head of the Forerunner, which was the saint of the day that was ending, not of the next day, which seems to contradict the second sentence quoted above. I assume this selection of the text for the saint of the day just ending was because of the poleleos ranking of the feast.

But in such a case which saint should have been commemorated at the Lamplighting Psalms? John (2/24) or Tarasius (2/25)? Based upon the commentary in the Typicon for March 9, I'm assuming the stichera for John. Does that mean that those stichera would have been used on both 2/23 and 2/24?

I am so confused.......

But

Top
#344744 - 03/06/10 01:24 PM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: EJKlages]
aramis Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 702
Loc: Eagle River, AK, US
The new day "begins" at vespers; but more specifically, at sunset. Represented by the ligting of the lamps. So one could say it changes during vespers. Vespers both starts and ends the day.

Top
#344931 - 03/09/10 10:32 PM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: aramis]
EJKlages Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 271
Loc: Oak Ridge, Tennessee
Originally Posted By: aramis
The new day "begins" at vespers; but more specifically, at sunset. Represented by the ligting of the lamps.

Yes, I know. That is the point of Fr. Petras' second statement: The commemoration of the saint of the day, however, follows the system of the rest of the year, from Vespers to the Ninth Hour.

But this does not explain the first sentence: During the Great Fast, the daily cycle runs from Matins to Vespers. If, during the Great Fast, the saint commemorated at Vespers is the saint of the upcoming day, and the theme celebrated is the theme of the upcoming day, then how is this different from the system of the rest of the year? The assumption is that these sentences are actually trying to communicate a point and are not merely a nullity, but I am unable to see the point.

By way of specific example, this year February 16 fell within the Great Fast. With a little digging, I'm sure I could find a year where February 16 also fell on a Tuesday but was not wihtin the Great Fast. How would the celebration of Vespers differed from the celebration in that other year?

Top
#345011 - 03/10/10 05:40 PM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: EJKlages]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 6956
Loc: Kansas
Ed, the difference is that in Lent you have the intersection of the Triodion, the Menaion, ascetic and Communion fasts that occurs at no other time of the year in this way. The Presanctified occupies a unique transitional place that includes a commemoration of the coming day but does not forget the day coming to a close with the breaking of the fast in receiving the Holy Mysteries.

So taking an example from the New Calendar this week, for example, at Tuesday evening's Presanctified we sang four stikhera of the 40 Holy Martys of Sebaste, while the previous (Monday) evening (here using Dolnytsky's usage) there would have been only three stikhera for the Holy Martyrs with three from the Triodion (assuming Vespers only on Monday evening as we celebrated).

The Old Testament readings were done Monday night both from the Triodion (Genesis and Proverbs) and following these, in addition one from Isaiah and two from Wisdom from the Menaion were taken. The Epistle and Gospel, however, were read at Tuesday night's Presanctified, when in reality at other times of the year that day would have ended liturgically speaking with the Prokimenon of Vespers already having been chanted.

Top
#345022 - 03/10/10 08:49 PM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: Diak]
EJKlages Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 271
Loc: Oak Ridge, Tennessee
So my guess was right that it is really only an issue when a feast (I'm assuming polyeleos or vigil rank) is involved? The "liturgy" aspects are for the day just ending and the "vespers" aspects are for the day upcoming?

Top
#345038 - 03/11/10 08:47 AM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: EJKlages]
Penthaetria Offline
Member

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 539
Loc: Tucson area
Originally Posted By: EJKlages
I am so confused.......


In my experience, the best way to avoid confusion in this area -- especially during Great Lent and Great Week -- is to embrace the Mystery. When we enter the church, we leave chronos behind. Our watches and calendars become meaningless devices. We enter kairos, the Eternal Now, and exult in the Presence of God.

Try it. You'll like it. biggrin

Top
#345045 - 03/11/10 09:56 AM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: EJKlages]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 6956
Loc: Kansas
Quote:
So my guess was right that it is really only an issue when a feast (I'm assuming polyeleos or vigil rank) is involved? The "liturgy" aspects are for the day just ending and the "vespers" aspects are for the day upcoming?


Precisely - at last night's Presanctified we took the Menaion stikhera texts for today (St. Sophronius) instead of those for St. Codratus and Companions; neither are doxology or polyeleos rank.

The 40 Holy Martyrs is a polyeleos-rank feast, and as such the vigil Old Testament readings and festal stikhera were taken in their normal place the evening before the feast (Monday, the evening of March 8th) celebrated as Vespers alone without Presanctified. On the evening of the feast itself, since the appointed Eucharistic liturgy is that of the Presanctified, the proper Epistle and Gospel are added to the Old Testament readings normally taken from the Triodion. The same is true for the 1st and 2nd Findings of the Head of St. John the Baptist, and in most usages when the parish patronal feast falls during a weekday of the Great Fast.

The exception, of course, is the Annunciation being one of the 12 Great Feasts and being of Vigil rank. That's yet another different dynamic of intercalation.


Top
#345096 - 03/12/10 06:30 AM Re: The Daily Cycle [Re: Penthaetria]
EJKlages Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 271
Loc: Oak Ridge, Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Penthaetria

In my experience, the best way to avoid confusion in this area -- especially during Great Lent and Great Week -- is to embrace the Mystery. When we enter the church, we leave chronos behind. Our watches and calendars become meaningless devices. We enter kairos, the Eternal Now, and exult in the Presence of God.

Try it. You'll like it. biggrin


That's not a bad theory, unless you are going to be standing alone at the kliros and don't want to constantly have one eye on the liturgical texts and one on a Typicon. And let's not discuss the potential for trainwreck if one's Typicon is ambiguous or inartistically worded.


Edited by EJKlages (03/12/10 06:33 AM)

Top


Moderator:  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright ©1996-2010. All rights reserved.