Over 1/2 million coming into the Orthodox Church (Ecumenical Patriarchate.)

Is there any independent substantiating evidence for this?

See the message from:

The Right Reverend Dr. ANDREW (Vujisic)
Archiepiscopal Vicar
and Administrator for the Parishes of Slavic Tradition

General Secretariat for Pan-Orthodox Ministries
Archdiocese of Mexico
Ecumenical Patriarchate

http://www.secretariat.orthodoxtheologicalinstitute.org/

-
-

Is that what it is saying, or is it saying there already are over 500,000 members in Central America?

"After months of catechetical and pastoral follow-up, the Archiepiscopal Vicar, the Right Reverend Mitered Archimandrite Dr. Andrew (Vujisić), traveled to Guatemala in January 2010 and received Msgr. Andrés Girón and Msgr. Mihail Castellanos of the independent Iglesia Católica Ortodoxa de Guatemala (ICOG), into the Orthodox Church. At that time, guidelines were also established to facilitate the reception of the ICOG's 527,000 members, which are overwhelmingly indigenous."

http://tinyurl.com/ycpunbt

The numbers are staggering, but also staggering is the disparity of available clergy (12) to serve 334 parishes, even supplemented by the 500+ lay ministers and catechists.

It is worth noting that similar disparities wreaked havoc on the ability of the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in South America (Armenian, Maronite, Melkite, and Ukrainian, principally) to afford pastoral care to their immigrant populations of faithful. The end result in those cases has been decidely large numbers of faithful ascribed on paper, but no real hope of serving the vast majority of them and the very real likelihood that most are long since lost to the Latin Church or unchurched, as the issue goes back several decades in most cases.

It does seem to me that we encountered and discussed the formerly independent Guatamalan body previously - perhaps, David, when you were compiling Spanish language resources last year?

Many years,

Neil

Yes, I wondered if it was the same group. After some searching, I came across what appears to be their website:

Iglesia Ortodoxa Latina

If you can read Spanish, check out their Liturgy page. It appears to be modeled after the Roman Liturgy in many places, but with Byzantine elements. Perhaps a "Western Orthodox" approach?

The site may be dated and may not represent where the group is now.

Dave,

ok - the prior discussion was here

At that time, they appeared to be coming into Orthodoxy via the Antiochian jurisdiction in Mexico (if my quick read of our prior posts is correct).

Interestingly, they now have their episcopal lineage posted, which I am virtually certain was not the case previously, as there are too many familiar names to have not caught my eye.

It includes Aftimios Ofiesh, Sophronios Bashara, Joseph Zuk, Fan Noli, Christopher Contogeorge, Nicholas Kedrovsky, Joseph Klimovicz, Peter Zurawetsky, Chistopher Stanley, Colin James Guthrie, William Francis Forbes, Thomas Baumler, John Martin, Nicholas Bohatyretz, and John Lehman. And those are just the ones whose names jumped out at me on skimming the epicopal tree.

Now, there is no one there who isn't already on multiple such lineages, but this is a truly interesting collection. It includes:

unquestionably canonical hierarchs (Sophronios Bashara, Fan Noli, Joseph Zuk);
hierarchs who were canonical, but strayed from that path (Aftimios Ofiesh, most notably);
persons who have crossed more jurisdictions than many have state borders (Colin James Guthrie comes immediately to mind);
several who were allegedly involved in some bizarre way, shape, or fashion in one of the myriad New Orleans versions of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy (Thomas Baumler and John Martin, favorite conspirators in the minds of some of the conspiracy theorists);
some who are usually identified with the Living Church (Nicholas Kedrovsky);
others involved with the disruptive activities that plagued the Russian, Greek, and Antiochian Orthodox in the early to mid 20th century (Christopher Contogeorge, Joseph Klimovicz, Peter Zurawetsky);
and the "patron saint" of Mar Markus Miller's Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc (Independent Jurisdiction) - ("Saint" Christopher Stanley)

Any of the above whom I left out of that list (and a whole host of others whom I didn't even include - like Ignatius Nichols) also belong to some one or another of the categories (excepting 'canonical' - it's a small category). At one time or another, the vast majority of these folk were involved with jurisdictions claiming to be legitimate Antiochian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian, or Ukrainian Orthodox Churches.

The ? last Guatamalan Orthodox bishop, an Andred Giron, appears to have been consecrated sometime between 1987 and 1998, likely in New Orleans, under the jurisdiction of the 'Orthodox Catholic Diocese of Louisiana of the Holy Orthodox Church American Jurisdiction (American Orthodox Church)' has one of its 2 principal locations - the other seemingly being Nashville, TN.

That said, one can only hope that, as you said, 'the site may be dated and may not represent where the group is now'. And, further, one can pray that this movement toward canonical Orthodoxy is genuine and survives the test of time, rather than representing another of the endless wanderings that have characterized the majority of these types of bodies over time.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, I talked to my good friend Father John Chakos of Holy Cross church in Pittsburgh, PA who is deeply involved with the group you are discussing above. He told me that the number of those coming over is highly inflated; he said there about 250,000 people involved. The number is about 50% of the published number.

John,

Interesting, and thanks for the info. I've come to the conclusion some years back that inflation of stats is hardly new to any of our Churches, regardless of where on the globe they're situated. Still, even at half the reported figure, the number is still staggering, both in terms of what it means in numbers of faithful and in the ability to meet their pastoral needs, given the reported clergy:faithful ratio.

The number is equally amazing in view of this having been, essentially, what we would consider a vagante ecclesia prior to this time. And, if anywhere near accurate, might give a huge clue to why it seems as though many semi-established vagante churches seem, in recent times, to claim a jurisdiction in Central or South America. Apparently, there are peoples there ready and willing to accept a form of Christianity that would, on first thought, seem to be 'foreign' to them.

I guess, in future, it would behoove us - both Catholic and Orthodox - to be less smug and self-assured that the XYZ Catholic-Orthodox Church of Anywhere South of the Border consists solely of 'Bishop' Joao and a couple of deacons, as we've tended to presume. With so much of Africa unchurched, it's always been a bit easier to believe that vagante could successfully set up shop there and prosper. We haven't believed it of a continent closer to home, where we picture Latin Catholicism, the Duarte-Costa independent version of Catholicism, and Protestant evangelicals to be the only truy established churches.

Many years,

Neil

Neil. father john also told me that a seminary is being set up there to provide priests for this new branch of Orthodoxy.

I find it strange that just a few months back Archimandrite Andrew was a member of the Russian Orthoodx Church Abroad and was engaged in work for the Russian Church Abroad....?

Please find below (in English) the introductory message of Metropolitan HILARION for El Instituto Superior de Ciencias Teológicas «San Basilio de Ostrog»

(http://www.orthodoxpr.org).

Source, August 2009:

MESSAGE FROM THE METROPOLITAN

It is with great joy that I bless the establishment of the Orthodox Theological Study Program in the Spanish language Instituto Superior de Ciencias Teológicas San Basilio de Ostrog. Our Lord’s call to teach and baptize all nations is a summons which the Orthodox Church has faithfully obeyed and fulfilled in the course of its history to the extent that it external condition and circumstances permitted.

The time has now come for a renewed witness of Orthodoxy to be extended to the Spanish-speaking world, especially in the countries of Latin America, South and Central America, and the Caribbean.

The newly instituted program will be easily accessible through the internet and subscribers will have a wonderful opportunity to discover the spiritual and theological wealth of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

The need for educational materials on the Orthodox Faith in the Spanish and Portuguese languages were first actively recognized by Bishop Alexander (Mileant) of blessed memory, formerly the ruling hierarch of the South American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.

He began to collect materials and translate seminary text books for the preparation of future candidates for the diaconate and priesthood in his diocese. His subsequent illness and untimely repose brought an end to his missionary and catechization endeavors.

Thanks be to God, the task of providing Orthodox Christian Education in Spanish has been taken up by the Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Dr. Andrew (Vujisic), a clergyman of the Eastern American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. May God richly and abundantly bless the efforts of Fr. Andrew and his co-workers in developing this study program for all who decide to know more about the Orthodox Church and its teachings and traditions.

May it also educate, spiritually enlighten and strengthen a multitude of new workers in Christ’s vineyard, future priests, deacons, readers, choir directors, and catechists.

This holy task is very necessary and timely, “for the harvest is great but the workers are few”.

Metropolitan HILARION

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Andrew_(Vujisi%C4%87)_of_Tralles

Tralles: is that in Central America?



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15016c.htm

I guess not.

Let me add just a bit more confusion to the mix. After reviewing the Guatamalan site that David and I discussed previously, I've concluded that there are 2 distinct Guatamalan Orthodox ecclesia.

The one celebrated here, apparently under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch and immediate guidance of an Archimandrite formerly of the ROCA, is (or was) styled as the Holy Christian Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church of Guatamala.

The one which was discussed a few months ago is styled the Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church of Guatamala. It is a canonical jurisdiction of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and the incumbent of the See is Antonio Chedraoui (Tannous), Metropolitan Archbishop of Mexico, Venezuela, Central America and the Caribbean.

Many years,

Neil

I'm moving this thread to East-West because it shows signs of hanging on a bit longer than the typical news thread - seeing that there is likely to be much further discussion and speculation of these events - and it's unfair to crowd new news from the top of the board.

Many years,

Neil

So the Orthodox see traditionally Latin Catholic Central and South America as open mission territory but Cathlocism, Latin or Greek, is still expected to keep out of Russia and elsewhere?

Well seeing how South American and Central American Catholics are embracing more Pentecostalism these days. Fair game!. Would rather see them Orthodox anyway.