Over 1/2 million coming into the Orthodox Church (Ecumenical Patriarchate.)

Is there any independent substantiating evidence for this?

See the message from:

The Right Reverend Dr. ANDREW (Vujisic)
Archiepiscopal Vicar
and Administrator for the Parishes of Slavic Tradition

General Secretariat for Pan-Orthodox Ministries
Archdiocese of Mexico
Ecumenical Patriarchate

http://www.secretariat.orthodoxtheologicalinstitute.org/

-
-

Is that what it is saying, or is it saying there already are over 500,000 members in Central America?

"After months of catechetical and pastoral follow-up, the Archiepiscopal Vicar, the Right Reverend Mitered Archimandrite Dr. Andrew (Vujisić), traveled to Guatemala in January 2010 and received Msgr. Andrés Girón and Msgr. Mihail Castellanos of the independent Iglesia Católica Ortodoxa de Guatemala (ICOG), into the Orthodox Church. At that time, guidelines were also established to facilitate the reception of the ICOG's 527,000 members, which are overwhelmingly indigenous."

http://tinyurl.com/ycpunbt

The numbers are staggering, but also staggering is the disparity of available clergy (12) to serve 334 parishes, even supplemented by the 500+ lay ministers and catechists.

It is worth noting that similar disparities wreaked havoc on the ability of the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in South America (Armenian, Maronite, Melkite, and Ukrainian, principally) to afford pastoral care to their immigrant populations of faithful. The end result in those cases has been decidely large numbers of faithful ascribed on paper, but no real hope of serving the vast majority of them and the very real likelihood that most are long since lost to the Latin Church or unchurched, as the issue goes back several decades in most cases.

It does seem to me that we encountered and discussed the formerly independent Guatamalan body previously - perhaps, David, when you were compiling Spanish language resources last year?

Many years,

Neil

Yes, I wondered if it was the same group. After some searching, I came across what appears to be their website:

Iglesia Ortodoxa Latina

If you can read Spanish, check out their Liturgy page. It appears to be modeled after the Roman Liturgy in many places, but with Byzantine elements. Perhaps a "Western Orthodox" approach?

The site may be dated and may not represent where the group is now.

Dave,

ok - the prior discussion was here

At that time, they appeared to be coming into Orthodoxy via the Antiochian jurisdiction in Mexico (if my quick read of our prior posts is correct).

Interestingly, they now have their episcopal lineage posted, which I am virtually certain was not the case previously, as there are too many familiar names to have not caught my eye.

It includes Aftimios Ofiesh, Sophronios Bashara, Joseph Zuk, Fan Noli, Christopher Contogeorge, Nicholas Kedrovsky, Joseph Klimovicz, Peter Zurawetsky, Chistopher Stanley, Colin James Guthrie, William Francis Forbes, Thomas Baumler, John Martin, Nicholas Bohatyretz, and John Lehman. And those are just the ones whose names jumped out at me on skimming the epicopal tree.

Now, there is no one there who isn't already on multiple such lineages, but this is a truly interesting collection. It includes:

unquestionably canonical hierarchs (Sophronios Bashara, Fan Noli, Joseph Zuk);
hierarchs who were canonical, but strayed from that path (Aftimios Ofiesh, most notably);
persons who have crossed more jurisdictions than many have state borders (Colin James Guthrie comes immediately to mind);
several who were allegedly involved in some bizarre way, shape, or fashion in one of the myriad New Orleans versions of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy (Thomas Baumler and John Martin, favorite conspirators in the minds of some of the conspiracy theorists);
some who are usually identified with the Living Church (Nicholas Kedrovsky);
others involved with the disruptive activities that plagued the Russian, Greek, and Antiochian Orthodox in the early to mid 20th century (Christopher Contogeorge, Joseph Klimovicz, Peter Zurawetsky);
and the "patron saint" of Mar Markus Miller's Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc (Independent Jurisdiction) - ("Saint" Christopher Stanley)

Any of the above whom I left out of that list (and a whole host of others whom I didn't even include - like Ignatius Nichols) also belong to some one or another of the categories (excepting 'canonical' - it's a small category). At one time or another, the vast majority of these folk were involved with jurisdictions claiming to be legitimate Antiochian, Greek, Hungarian, Russian, or Ukrainian Orthodox Churches.

The ? last Guatamalan Orthodox bishop, an Andred Giron, appears to have been consecrated sometime between 1987 and 1998, likely in New Orleans, under the jurisdiction of the 'Orthodox Catholic Diocese of Louisiana of the Holy Orthodox Church American Jurisdiction (American Orthodox Church)' has one of its 2 principal locations - the other seemingly being Nashville, TN.

That said, one can only hope that, as you said, 'the site may be dated and may not represent where the group is now'. And, further, one can pray that this movement toward canonical Orthodoxy is genuine and survives the test of time, rather than representing another of the endless wanderings that have characterized the majority of these types of bodies over time.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, I talked to my good friend Father John Chakos of Holy Cross church in Pittsburgh, PA who is deeply involved with the group you are discussing above. He told me that the number of those coming over is highly inflated; he said there about 250,000 people involved. The number is about 50% of the published number.

John,

Interesting, and thanks for the info. I've come to the conclusion some years back that inflation of stats is hardly new to any of our Churches, regardless of where on the globe they're situated. Still, even at half the reported figure, the number is still staggering, both in terms of what it means in numbers of faithful and in the ability to meet their pastoral needs, given the reported clergy:faithful ratio.

The number is equally amazing in view of this having been, essentially, what we would consider a vagante ecclesia prior to this time. And, if anywhere near accurate, might give a huge clue to why it seems as though many semi-established vagante churches seem, in recent times, to claim a jurisdiction in Central or South America. Apparently, there are peoples there ready and willing to accept a form of Christianity that would, on first thought, seem to be 'foreign' to them.

I guess, in future, it would behoove us - both Catholic and Orthodox - to be less smug and self-assured that the XYZ Catholic-Orthodox Church of Anywhere South of the Border consists solely of 'Bishop' Joao and a couple of deacons, as we've tended to presume. With so much of Africa unchurched, it's always been a bit easier to believe that vagante could successfully set up shop there and prosper. We haven't believed it of a continent closer to home, where we picture Latin Catholicism, the Duarte-Costa independent version of Catholicism, and Protestant evangelicals to be the only truy established churches.

Many years,

Neil

Neil. father john also told me that a seminary is being set up there to provide priests for this new branch of Orthodoxy.

I find it strange that just a few months back Archimandrite Andrew was a member of the Russian Orthoodx Church Abroad and was engaged in work for the Russian Church Abroad....?

Please find below (in English) the introductory message of Metropolitan HILARION for El Instituto Superior de Ciencias Teológicas «San Basilio de Ostrog»

(http://www.orthodoxpr.org).

Source, August 2009:

MESSAGE FROM THE METROPOLITAN

It is with great joy that I bless the establishment of the Orthodox Theological Study Program in the Spanish language Instituto Superior de Ciencias Teológicas San Basilio de Ostrog. Our Lord’s call to teach and baptize all nations is a summons which the Orthodox Church has faithfully obeyed and fulfilled in the course of its history to the extent that it external condition and circumstances permitted.

The time has now come for a renewed witness of Orthodoxy to be extended to the Spanish-speaking world, especially in the countries of Latin America, South and Central America, and the Caribbean.

The newly instituted program will be easily accessible through the internet and subscribers will have a wonderful opportunity to discover the spiritual and theological wealth of Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

The need for educational materials on the Orthodox Faith in the Spanish and Portuguese languages were first actively recognized by Bishop Alexander (Mileant) of blessed memory, formerly the ruling hierarch of the South American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia.

He began to collect materials and translate seminary text books for the preparation of future candidates for the diaconate and priesthood in his diocese. His subsequent illness and untimely repose brought an end to his missionary and catechization endeavors.

Thanks be to God, the task of providing Orthodox Christian Education in Spanish has been taken up by the Rt. Rev. Archimandrite Dr. Andrew (Vujisic), a clergyman of the Eastern American Diocese of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. May God richly and abundantly bless the efforts of Fr. Andrew and his co-workers in developing this study program for all who decide to know more about the Orthodox Church and its teachings and traditions.

May it also educate, spiritually enlighten and strengthen a multitude of new workers in Christ’s vineyard, future priests, deacons, readers, choir directors, and catechists.

This holy task is very necessary and timely, “for the harvest is great but the workers are few”.

Metropolitan HILARION

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Andrew_(Vujisi%C4%87)_of_Tralles

Tralles: is that in Central America?



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15016c.htm

I guess not.

Let me add just a bit more confusion to the mix. After reviewing the Guatamalan site that David and I discussed previously, I've concluded that there are 2 distinct Guatamalan Orthodox ecclesia.

The one celebrated here, apparently under the omophor of the Ecumenical Patriarch and immediate guidance of an Archimandrite formerly of the ROCA, is (or was) styled as the Holy Christian Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church of Guatamala.

The one which was discussed a few months ago is styled the Catholic Apostolic Orthodox Church of Guatamala. It is a canonical jurisdiction of the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and the incumbent of the See is Antonio Chedraoui (Tannous), Metropolitan Archbishop of Mexico, Venezuela, Central America and the Caribbean.

Many years,

Neil

I'm moving this thread to East-West because it shows signs of hanging on a bit longer than the typical news thread - seeing that there is likely to be much further discussion and speculation of these events - and it's unfair to crowd new news from the top of the board.

Many years,

Neil

So the Orthodox see traditionally Latin Catholic Central and South America as open mission territory but Cathlocism, Latin or Greek, is still expected to keep out of Russia and elsewhere?

Well seeing how South American and Central American Catholics are embracing more Pentecostalism these days. Fair game!. Would rather see them Orthodox anyway.

I am not concerned they are becoming Orthodox, but that the Moscow Patriarchate constantly complains about Catholic proselytism in their traditional territory or among their faithful but the Orthodox have no reservation about the same in reverse.

Father,

Incredible as it is to us non-Greeks, the current Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew the Oneth interprets Canon 28 of Chalcedon as giving him canonical authorioty over all territories around the globe except those belonging to existing autocephalous and autononomous Churches. As such all the Americas belong to him, since they did not constitute the traditional territory of the Church of Rome at the time when we were united and no Council has granted them to Rome.

I admit that an uncontrollable desire to collapse into laughter seizes me when I think of this claim. Knowing of this claim, Catholics will better understand why some Orthodox are resolutely opposed to this interpretation of Canon 28, as also to the newly invented role of a Protos of Primus within Orthodoxy and also opposed to Belgrade 2006, Ravenna 2007, and what some are now calling the "Cretan Unia" (the positon paper developed on Crete and presented to but not approved by the Joint International Catholic-Orthodox Meeting on Cyprus 2009.)

LOL. Me thinks thou dost protest too much. The Vatican has shown no such concern in the East. I do remember JP II railing against the Protestants in Latin America, while allegations of human rights were being raised, for instance, in Ukraine.

As for the group in question, they are not under the Vatican. If the Orthodox were stealing sheep, it wasn't from that flock.

Gentlemen,

This announcement has offered all sorts of legitimate questions, as well as having raised a variety of speculative issues - all of which are fairly interesting in and of themselves (but few of which we're likely to have answered, other than by the passage of time).

In the interim, let's NOT wander into who (the EP, the MP, or the Pope) possesses the historical and/or rightful authority to bring these folk from an ecclesia vagante into communion with an Apostolic Church.

If folks want to debate historical and/or canonical territories, proselytism, sheep-stealing, etc, please feel free to do so, but take it up in a new thread.

Many years,

Neil

Interesting discussion.

Whenever I see 500,000 of anything claimed in religious discussions I immediately (rightly or wrongly) assume there is an exaggeration at hand.

Dear Friends

Vagantism exists in Latin America in the form of "Old Catholic" or "Independent Catholic" denominations. However, many of them, seeing the good reputation of the Orthodox Churches, have changed their names and now call themselves Orthodox.

All of them trace their "holy orders" to Carfora, Aftimios, Thuc, Souris, Conteogeorge, etc. just as their US "sister Churches" do. These sects are often founded by men who have been expelled from a Roman seminary (or left because they couldn't handle it) so they looked for an easier way to be clergymen. Some of them are good people who didn't want to pass through all the difficulties you would normally pass if you wanted to be ordained at a serious Church but others do so for convenience Unfortunately, in Latin America, many priests believe their job to be just another occupation, they think they provide a service and that they deserve a pay for what they do so, the priesthood has become an attractive way to do business. It's quite easy to get a "religion minister" permission from the government and the vagantes often pose as Catholic priests and celebrate in funerals, weddings, birthdays, etc.

The Guatemalan case is complicated. There are 3 or 4 independent denominations and they're one against the other. Many of these denominations in Latin America have attempted to join an Orthodox jurisdiction without success. But then there's the situation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, they're virtually unexistant in Mexico and Central America, they have about three churches in all the countries this diocese controls and (at least in Mexico) they actually have no followers. The diocese has been plagued by scandals in the past and there are some priests who have been defrocked or who have become "independent". Bishop Athenagoras isn't living in Mexico (I think he resides in Panama). Therefore, by bringing Archimandrite Vusnic to the country the Ecumenical Patriarchate attempts to heal the diocese's reputation and win followers for the Patriarchate and Orthodoxy.

This is probably the reason why they've allowed this Guatemalan group to join the diocese, something they would never do in other countries (In Ecuador, for example, there is a vibrant and truly Orthodox Non canonical community and they have been unable to be officially received as a community. This is very unfair).

A rival group of the denomination that joined the EP in Guatemala (which dennounces the EP as false and opportunistic, claiming that they actually have at most 1000 followers who actually know nothing about Orthodoxy), is trying to be received canonically by the Coptic Orthodox Church. This is the best thing they can do: the Coptic Church in Mexico is very respectable, they've had no scandals, no problems and the people in charge of it are truly Orthodox and devote. The Copts are taking their time to decide, their Church is studying the case. This is a prudent step, as they don't want to have problems with oportunistic people or people they don't know well.

Changing from vagante to Orthodox isn't easy, you can't receive such a big community with so many clergy and ordain them without knowing if they are prepared for that. Just look at the case of the Philippines, where the Antiochian Church ordained priests who were celebrating the Novus Ordo rite verus populum and who wore Novus Ordo vestments. The pictures are available on many sites.

Hi Mexican,

I found this list of the parishes of the Ecumenical Patriarchate's Diocese of Central America, do you know if it is correct and updated?

I don't think it's updated since the new parishes in Guatemala, coming from the group recently received in Orthodoxy, do not appear on the list.

I think there were some parishes in Colombia that went independent recently.

By the way most of the clergy of the EP is from Colombia.

My Spanish is really execrable but after glancing at their website I have a very high degree of confidence that these people are NOT Orthodox. At best they are schismatics, but probably not even that. One really major tip off is when the website of a "church" feels the need to post its bona fides in terms of apostolic succession. That's a huge red flag.

Also few of those listed would pass muster with the Orthodox Church and in any case we don't generally recognize the sacraments of vegantes. The so called "Dutch Touch" is meaningless to us. These are just a bunch of layman playing dress up with serious delusions if they think they are Orthodox.

Not sure how Rome would view them since the Vatican takes a somewhat different view of Holy Orders.