I'm more than a little disappointed in my journey back to the RC church and my side curiosity in the EOC. I've been two EO churches, both VERY small, and obviously a visitor, little was done to evangelize me. There was a couple of nice folks there... but almost nothing done to want me to come back to that congregation...
At least RC parishes have a local radio station to evangelize, but the local parishes aren't overly friendly either.
I am scheduled to get my marriage convalidated next month.. but I figured now would be a good time to make sure that I want to get back into the RC. Whatever I choose... I want it to be the last time.
I like what I read about the EO approach to theology... but without instruction...
I kind of get a "you should feel priviledged to worship with us" from the EO & RC churches. The local Protestant churches do everything they can to get more members and follow-up with visitors, get their name, address, visit their home, give them an info packet, etc....
I came away thinking... they're not friendly, a lot of non-english speaking folks, what do I have in common with them? Why investigate changing if they're not really interested in converts...

Were you hoping to be aggressively evangelized? Orthodox tend to concern themselves with their own salvation. The great Saint Seraphim of Sarov says "Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved." Thus, whether right or wrong Protestant style evangelization will not be found in most Orthodox parishes. IMHO, Orthodox evangelization consists of two things: One, Orthodox live their faith so that others can see the fruits of Orthodoxy. And two, they should welcome all inquires.

My advise for you is to continue to go to the Church Services and try to take it all in, ask questions, and pray that the Holy Spirits converts your heart.

Well I just figured maybe somebody would have come over and at least said "hi" afterwards... everyone scurried off into their own directions.... maybe I forgot to put on deoderant

Dave,

Just out of curiosity (and I don't mean this as a criticism of anyone), do you consider this a bit much? Of course, every church should have introductory materials, and certainly someone should greet visitors and people should talk with them.

But visiting homes and getting addresses........

Markos,

Not at all. It might seem invasive at first glance to us, but it's classic evangelization and our Protestant brethren are much better at it than we are. 'We'll be glad to add you to our church mailing list' and 'Can I stop by and say hello' are highly successful evangelization techniques and not the invasive 'cold calls' that we associate with JW and CoJCoLDS missioners. If the 'visitor' is actually interested and not just a religious tourist passing through on his or her way to a different church next week, he or she is likely to welcome this kind of attention.

Many years,

Neil

Eagerness to make converts is not exactly the Christian way. Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees about such zeal.

Jesus did not tell us to make converts, but disciples.

Based on my experiences with Protestant family and friends, I think it is easier to be a marginal Catholic than a marginal Protestant, because of the sacraments.

For instance, there is more grace in a single Eucharist than a lifetime of reading the Bible. The Protestant has to work infinitely harder, such that the moderates and marginals tend to drop off.

So the average Protestant congregation will become more hard core. Us Catholics, poor sinners that we are, will have more introverts, lazies, and other flawed types who will be less likely to approach you immediately.

Booth,
Infrequent poster

In having a truly engaged parish, a parish that wants to be involved in the lives of her members and wants her members to be involved in the life of the Church, we believe that you have 6 weeks to engage somebody. That give you 6 Sundays in most places, to welcome a person into the fold and make them feel like they belong and are loved. It may take on different forms, getting names, addresses, communicating outside of services, is by far one of the most effective.

Just my own two cents after all of the Stewardship and Engagement trainings I've attended.

Dave,

Quite frankly, what you describe happens - not everywhere and not always, thank God, but it does. The differences from congregation to congregation in this respect are substantial (and, as has been noted here on many prior occasions, inexcusable and self-defeating).

It was an easier phenomenon to understand in the Latin churches of decades ago. Huge congegations at each of several Masses on a Sunday, parish size generally precluded pastors from ever really 'knowing' their parishioners and the latter generally only 'knew' those from their neighborhood, with 'fellowship' being considered a 'Protestant thing'. In many places, it's much different now, but nowhere near in all. The 'things we need to do' after church - shop, attend a movie, grill, sports events, etc - mean that, for many, the most important thing after the dismissal is to get to one's car and get moving before the parking lot exit gets jammed.

In our churches of the East, both Catholic and Orthodox, accustomed as we long were to being ethnic enclaves, the 'visitor' was often seen as just that - a religious tourist. We especially came to feel that way in the post-VII days (before that no one even knew we were around, it seems) when we were deluged with the curious - few of whom were intending to be there for the long haul. And, even now, in very ethnocentric parishes, there is a lack of understanding as to why someone who 'isn't one of us' is in our temple, other than as a matter of curiousity.

I cannot find the thread right now, but there was a wonderful series of blog postings by a Protestant minister (from TX, as I recollect) about his very positive experiences in attending the Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox church near his home over a period of several weeks. What he experienced (absent any attempt to evangelize) is much more what you had hoped to encounter. We are learning - not so quickly as one might hope and more so in some places and parishes than others - that we need to be out there, to be inclusive rather than reclusive or exclusive, to reach out and embrace, because - if we don't, we shall have failed to 'go forth and teach all nations'.

I'd suggest to look around a bit more - or to keep on coming back. It's a month since you joined here, not sure how long you've been making your odyssey to these parishes, but it seems to me - from your early posts - that it only began about that time. If so, you can't have visited more than once, by the number of parishes you describe as visiting. Repeat visitors are more likely to be greeted with 'hail, fellow well met' than the one-time drive-by.

Keep in mind also, that this is the Lenten Season, when many are, hopefully, very focused on their prayer and religious life and less observant of distractions from same. On the other hand, it is also a time when church calendars are replete with events such as Lenten suppers; watch for and attend some such - at a parish where you've been to Liturgy more than once. I can almost assure that you'll be noticed and approached - from curiousity if nothing else.



Finally, I'd try to lose some of the attitude that the closing sentences of your post convey. Mike is right when he asks if you expected to be aggressively evangelized - and when you reply that you thought someone might come over and say 'hi' - did you?

I don't know if you're a native Texan but, in my experience there, you're in a part of the country where there are two widely divergent attitudes toward those one doesn't know. It's either 'hi, partner, let's have a drink and some ribs' or 'fences make good neighbors - you keep on your side and I'll keep on mine'. Figuring out the prevailing one in any given situation or setting was always a challenge.

Many years,

Neil

Sorry didn't mean any attitude...

I just responded to you elsewhere. I'm so glad you've found your way to this Forum! I hope it will be more helpful to you. Folks here have been a great help to me.
pax- Mary Louise

I once was approached at an Orthodox parish after Liturgy. Even though it was a very large parish and I think I was following the DL closely they still picked me out. (I had had email and phone contact a week or so before the trip to confirm the time and the parking, so maybe they were alerted to looking for me.)

I was greeted and invited to coffee hour, I had a conference elsewhere to get back to, and given a small, attractive, bag with a parish coffee mug, a coupon for a cup of free coffee, I forget the details of that since I wasn't going to be in the area to follow-up on that part, and some familiar tracts on Orthodoxy. There were a number of these bags set out so it seemed to be something they normally do. Perhaps it's not surprising that this is a parish which is made up largely of converts from evangelical backgrounds.

Materials on Orthodoxy are usually out and visible but I've never before or since been approached with other than a warm smile when visiting an Orthodox parish (and definitely not at a Latin Catholic Church, except for teeny rural weekday Mass type settings).

We struggle at my parish with what to give visitors to take home with them and ever since that visit I've had a commitment to putting together some new mock ups of possible materials for visitors to take. I mentioned to Dave elsewhere that I do think we are good about greeting our visitors at my ECC and many do stay for our agape meal after Liturgy. But navigating the DL is another story. We don't have service books, and neither does the Orthodox church I also go to, and I agree with that. Watch, listen, respond as you can during DL and then get more information outside of Liturgy. We're blessed with so much great stuff on line now.

Is anyone here familiar with St. Basil's ECC listed as Irving Metro Area: Dallas? It seemed like a possible ECC option in the Dallas area, with a newly assigned priest

Sorry if I have came across as a (&^$#&. I am very frustrated over the past few months. I feel I am in a whirlwind and not getting clear spiritual direction from God... (ok it's probably me not listening or not wanting to hear the answer :) )
My kids are rejecting Christianity altogether and I feel rotten for being lead to the Protestant churches in the first place...
Anyways I apologize for a tone I may have...

Dave,

We all get frustrated at times and my tone at the end of that post was, itself, harsher sounding than it should have been, for which I apologize. Instead of focusing on your closing comments or mine, instead consider some of the other points.

As I suggested earlier, try repeat visits in successive weeks to one or more of the parishes. And spiritually feed yourself with prayer and some reading in the interim. As to your children's rejection of Christianity, that's an ongoing problem for many. You don't mention their ages - but I'm guessing either teens or young adulthood. One can hope and pray that it's a phase and that renewed commitment to Chrisianity on your part might bring about changes in their own thinking. We'll pray with you for that to happen, as well as for your own spiritual journey, regardless of where it takes you.

Many years,

Neil

There was a time (not that long ago) when everyone, Catholic and Protestant, sought their social interaction and support NOT from their Churches, but the broader community: neighbors, school, and the like.

So-called ethnic churches (Eastern or Western) once provided this community for their members once swimming in an alien sea of monoglot anglophone Americans.

By and large, in my observation, neighborhood parishes of any confession didn't have to do this. They were PART of the social support, but not all of it.

But with the dissolution of neighborhood churches, even Latin parishes, and the rise of independent Evangelical mega-churches, more and more these congregations ARE becoming the social network, especially as many of them develop a siege, if not separatist, mentality.

A note about evangelical megachurchism--they are very firm these days about one or two doctrinal points and especially socio-political issues, but there will generally be a wide range of belief and disbelief among their members about other spiritual matters--more than you would think.

I have friends who attend St. Basil's in Irving.

Dave, if you are interested, I can probably get you in touch with them.
I'm a member at St. Peter Antiochian in Fort Worth. We are Western Rite Orthodox. It'd be an hour drive for you from McKinney, but we'd love to see you.

Gregg

Additionally you can visit St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church in McKinney, TX. Contact Father Seraphim (who is a convert himself) via email [seraphim at orthodox.net]. Father Seraphim keeps a great blog here: http://www.orthodox.net/redeemingthetime/

This is an English speaking parish in ROCOR that has some evangelical ministries for outreach. I am sure you might have visited them already being located in your hometown. I would suggest contacting the Priest and informing him of you situation then go to the services and see how friendly the parish is when they know that you have an authentic interest in Orthodoxy. BTW, this parish is getting ready to move into a newly constructed temple!

May God keep You!

Michael

I don't know which EO churches you visited, and I can only work from my own experience, but I have experience a lot of love from the parishes that I have attended, and that is a lot better than friendly.

I've done Roman Catholic, Evangelical/Pentecostal Protestant, and the Byzantine tradition. I've done Evangelism Explosion, where you go out and knock on doors and ask people really nosey questions. Admittedly, the RC and EO churches don't do that, but if you do more than just visit, you will find that there is a richness and beauty and deeply personal (and yet corporate) worship than you will ever find in any Protestant Church.

Which would be better? An opening prayer, Anthems and hymns sung by the choir, and then a sermon, leading up to an altar call to give your life to Jesus; or inviting the Mystical Presence of Jesus into your life by receiving the Eucharist?

As for me, I'll take that latter.

The sinner Brendan

Methodists are great people, no doubt about it. They make the best neighbors. My father, grandfather, and greatgrandfather were Methodist ministers, as are two first cousins. An aunt was a Methodist deaconess. My family and I became Byzantine Catholics ten years ago. No regrets whatsoever. The Catholic Church has all the sacraments. The Methodists, God bless them, do not.

There is a Catholic presonality (or anti-personality) that, I think, is the result of marginalization in America, lack of education, and lack of social graces that may be caused by related to the hard, struggling, working class roots of many Catholics. How many times have I introduced myself to priests who didn't even tell me their names?! Their mamas should have taught them better.

There's also a pervasive suspicion of tradition--often times parroting old and forgotten protestant liberal theories. I found that very disconcerting--I had converted because of the Truth I read in the catechism; I discovered as a Catholic that many of my fellow parishioners and even some priests rejected the Catechism!

There's also, at least in the Latin parish I attend, a culture of mediocrity in the music and execution of the liturgy. Episcopalians celebrate their liturgy with much more reverence and respect. There's more traditional Catholic music at many Methodist churches than in my parish.

But--all this is changing for the better, I believe.

I love Catholics and I love the Caholic Church. I miss the Methodists, but I don't miss BEING Methodist. Thank God I can take communion at the Divine Liturgy or Holy Mass.

Peace to all,

Jim McCafferty

#1. you DONT enter the RC Church because of good feely things!
You enter it because it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ as a means of your salvation.
#2 You DO enter the RC Church because it proclaims the Truth of God in season and out of season whether it is popluar or not.
Stephanos I

You don't think parishioners of a parish should be interested in new comers or someone returning to their faith? It seems that you are being somewhat harsh. I for one am far more likely to attend a parish where people are not stuck up.

In Christ:
Einar

I'm glad you are trying to return to the Catholic Church.

I believe I may have seen you @ St. Basil's in irving - at a Sat. a.m. Liturgy. I'm the guy in the uniform who sits on the last row...I had to leave immediately afterward in order to got to my job on time...so I was unable to ask if you're Dave in McKinney...

I hope you'll give St. Basil's another, say, 3 dozen chances. We're an imperfect bunch and sometimes we unintentionally overlook needs that are staring us right in the face.

Dave,

Are you starting to sense a theme here about the reasons for going to a Catholic Church? Ultimately, it is the only reason. Still, we could do the other stuff better. I used to attend a Wesleyan Church with an old boyfriend. It was my first experience outside of a Catholic Church and I was amazed. I went to 7:30 Mass in my own church, which I had been attending for several years. Although several people were familiar, very few people knew my name. At my boyfriend's church, which I attended with him for his first visit, the pastor and his wife introduced themselves the first week. The second week, they and others remembered our names. By the third week, we already felt a part of it all.

When I started attending my current (Byzantine) parish, I was one of only about 15 people. The Deacon (much to my surprise) remembered me from childhood and we had a conversation about my cousin, who also sometimes attended Liturgy there. Other than that, nobody gave me the time of day. It took months of regular attendance before people started acting like I belonged. The parish has grown since then, and I and others make an effort to greet visitors and it has paid off.

Yes, we have the Eucharist. For that reason, we will always be at a Catholic Church. In that, we don't really have a choice. One time we had a visitor in the back of the church. I made the assumption that he was a Latin-rite Catholic, since most of our visitors are. We greeted him and answered his questions, assuming that they were from a Latin Rite perspective, but it turned out that he was an unbaptized seeker. He had "prayed the Jesus prayer" and was looking for more. He wasn't a convert who had read his way into the church. He knew nothing about the Eucharist. He just knew that God had brought him into our church that Sunday morning. Anyway, he is now preparing for baptism. Had we not been welcoming and open to him, he might have moved on.

We are there because we have the Eucharist. We know that we will not be anywhere else. But that does not excuse us from failing to show the basic virtue of hospitality to every visitor who comes through our door. This will look different in big parishes and small parishes, and I'm not sure I'd want the approach of the mega-church Protestants. We don't want to develop an insular attitude. These visitors have come to us. On some level, they want what we have and we can offer it to them. We need to reach out to them as individuals and determine what their needs are. We have a responsibility to fulfill the Great Commission and one way we can work at doing that is through the hospitality we show to visitors in our churches.

No I didnt say that.
I remember once hearing a man say oh yeah I was a catholic once but I didnt like the music! Duh!
My point was that ultimately we are to be faithful to Chirst and his will, not or own whims or likes or dislikes.
Stephanos I

Unfortunately, Roman Catholic parishes where the "music" completely blots out any chance at prayer, reverence, or participating in the Mass don't seem to be rare. In these parishes, the "music mafia" is off doing its own thing, with nor regard to the Mass, purpose, theology, and so forth.

Hi there .... before I start this, I want to be sure everyone understands that I am NOT touting one Orthodox Church over another ... our belief systems are the same and that is the important bottom line. However, that being said, I am part of the Western Antiochian Orthodox Church, which basically has little or no ethnic flavor at all. Everyone speaks English, there is no sense of being "closed out" and we are welcoming to visitors. On the other hand, there is a larger Greek Orthodox Church in our town, which while the Priest is a dear man, when visiting their services, the difference is profound. The service is in Greek and (please forgive me here)and the people are very cold and non-welcoming. Like I said, I am not touting one over the other, but I think the Western Orthodox are filled with more the "former Protestants, Episcopalians, and cradle Catholics" which makes for less of an ethnic, and perhaps more open and welcoming atmosphere. If I have offended anyone by this post, I am truly sorry .... it was not my intention at all.
Just my thoughts,
abby

Dear Abby,

You haven't offended me or anyone else, I am sure. You have shared your experience, and it is a valid one. Some Greek Orthodox churches are run like nothing more than Greek American social clubs. This is true; and especially where there are many immigrants still. I am assuming that was the case where you went, because the directive of the Greek Archdiocese is to use predominantly the language of the congregation.

I wish you could visit my Greek Orthodox parish to see how different it is (though I do acknowledge that for the North East it is a rarity)...Our Liturgy and chanting is in English, and our congregation and priest are very devout. Those who didn't like that, left. People are basically friendly and our congregation is American born; whether Greek or anything else.

I understand that there are also former Protestants in many OCA and Antiochian parishes throughout the country...

I think that geographical locations have alot to do with what you will find in any given Eastern 'rite' Orthodox church...and in a way, maybe this is good becasue not every parish, priest, and its congregation is the right fit for someone to feel comfortable in; whether cradle like me, or convert like you! So the smorgasborg may actually be a good thing! LOL.

Best regards,
Alice

My sister married a Greek, converted to the Orthodox Church, and became a very active member of her parish. It was a decade or more before they stopped considering her "xeni". Don't be put off by the stares or questions of a few--most Orthodox are warm and welcoming.

Alice,

Just how common is English in the GOA these days? The Liturgy at St. Katherine's in Falls Church is primarily in Greek, as is the Liturgy at the parish in Mattituck on Long Island, where I go when visiting my parents. I thought that the Archdiocese had come down firmly against vernacularism, but perhaps that has changed? Is it now left to the discretion of each individual pastor?

And in a related development, a show on the local NPR station is discussing Greek culture and Greek food in the Washington Metro area, and this weekend marks the beginning of Greek Festival Season, which will last through 4-6 June (with the St. Katherine's Festival in Falls Church, the last festival of the season--though St. Katherine's has a second festival in early October, too).

During the times I've been out photographing church interiors or going to festivals, I've found the Greek Orthodox to be the friendliest of all the Orthodox I've met. Last year on Orthodox Good Friday, I visited one church that used to be in my old neighborhood, and before I left, I had gotten a private tour and was given a yearbook and video for free.

Shlomo (Peace to you) Dave,

Have you thought about going to any of the Eastern Catholic Churches in Dallas? Not all the time, but maybe as a secondary sourse of strengh?

There are a number of them and if you are interested I and others on the board will be more than happy to give you information on them.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Hi Dave .... I'm afraid I'm feeling much as you are .... although now that I realize that the Orthodox/Catholic faiths were the original, I don't see how I could ever go back to Protestantism. I'm really thinking there truly is no place for me; after being a Christian since 1968, I'm worn out and about ready to give up.
abby

If it hurts, that means it's working.

A good workout will leave you sore once in a while. Eastern Catholicism sure does that to me sometimes.

Jacob had to wrestle with the angel, and even after, he was left with a limp.

Humbly submitted,
Booth,
Infrequent poster

In my opinion, I think it's best to focus on your spiritual journey and the Eucharist :) I attended a non denominational Protestant church for a time, and they had a lot of felloswhip, etc, but I've found the Catholic Church is so much better for my spiritual growth, and it has the Sacraments.

I also never felt comfortable with my old church taking down my name, address, etc, each time... I was even afraid to bring people to visit my church cause I didn't know if they would feel comfortable. When I left, no one contacted me though.

I think that nothing really compares to the Sacraments, and only the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have this :)

this is the Church that God made.. it's not about finding something that fits us, but finding the truth, that is what's important, imo..

God bless

I agree. If I were looking for people that fit me in the church, I would have been an atheist for a long time now.

I totally agree with Stephanos. We're there ultimately to worship and lift up God through the hearing of his word and receiving the Word in the Eucharist. I think when we get all concerned about hospitality we loose sense of why we're really there. Sure, being cordial by acknowledging Christ in our visitors is important, but it's not a deal breaker on "becoming Catholic or staying Methodist". We have the sacraments Christ willed for all people and we are the true Church Christ himself established. For this reason, be happy to know this truth and to be part of it. To me, that's far greater than having my emotions uplifted from being acknowledged by others at Holy Mass or Divine Liturgy.

You've received some great advice here. One person said to keep going to the same parish and you're bound to have someone speak to you. I recommend becoming involved in a parish Bible study or some other event where you have the opportunity to meet people outside of Liturgy. RCIA is a good and logical way to do this especially you're inquirering on the Church. Why not introduce yourself to others rather than waiting on them? I've met people this way and by random people coming up to me after Mass asking who I am and if I was a member. I come from a large parish with 10,000 members. I didn't care one way or the other that it took months to be spoken to after Mass because Jesus knew I was there receiving His Body and Blood, and it is He who speaks to my soul, which I'll take any day over a warm greeting from a fellow parishoner. Hang in there, you're on the surest path to Heaven in the Catholic/Orthodox faith.