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New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics #345184 03/14/10 02:57 AM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline OP
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Pulled this off the Melkite website. Very interesting. It was promulagted "ad experimentum" from February, 2009 through October 2010, at which point the Patriarch is to meet with the Bishops from English speaking countries to formally approve it on a permanent basis. I did a quick read of this,and from what I can see, it is quite good. The celebration is a "full" one. The priest is adressed by the deacon as "Master". The term "Orthodox" is used instead of "true faith". There is not one shred of political correctness, or of "horizontal inclusive" language. Enjoy!

http://www.melkite.org/PDF/LITURGY2009.pdf

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #345194 03/14/10 05:24 AM
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There was some unhappiness about not saying "ages of ages" instead of "forever and ever." However, the explanation is that they are following use of English Bibles.

Actually, the so-called "Synodal" liturgy with just one antiphon is provided for.

There are two things I would suggest (were anyone to step out from behind a bush to ask me):

1. Please allow for the proper Ambo prayers.

2. In the petition for travelers, add "....and in the vastness of the heavens." Those in the space shuttle (and future space missions) are NOT traveling through the air.

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: bpbasilphx] #345276 03/15/10 01:29 PM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
There was some unhappiness about not saying "ages of ages" instead of "forever and ever." However, the explanation is that they are following use of English Bibles.


Good point. "Ages of ages" is a more lieral translation, and the meaning is not lost to modern ears.

Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
Actually, the so-called "Synodal" liturgy with just one antiphon is provided for.


Yes, but the full celebration is "in there". Sadly, this is not the case in the Ruthenian translation. The abbreviation has become the "licit" norm for us.
There are two things I would suggest (were anyone to step out from behind a bush to ask me):

Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
1. Please allow for the proper Ambo prayers.


Yes, and a faithful translation is of the utmost importance. We are using a multiplicity of Ambo prayers, but some of them, because of "horizontal inclusive" spins to the translation make one cringe. There is one particular Ambo prayer which addresses Our Lord by saying, instead of "You became man for us", "You became a human being for us." I am no theologian, but this one might be really problematic in that Conciliar teachings (from the early Councils) tell us that Our Lord Jesus Christ is a "Divine being who took on human nature ". Would referring to Him as a "human being" in any way deny that He is a Divine Being, or does it just affirm that He took on human nature in addition to His Divinity? Does this translation of the prayer tend toward Arianism, or is my line of thought drifting toward Monophysitism?

At any rate, the translation is bad, and obscures the fact that Our Lord took on a male human nature, all, apparently in the name of modernity and political correctness.

(2.) As to space travel, I would see no problem with adding that to the ektenia (with proper Patriarchal approval, of course).

Dn. Robert

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #345282 03/15/10 02:54 PM
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I honestly wonder how much affect this new translation will have, at least in the U.S. My parish hasn't even attempted to implement it. That being said, the translation we use and the "new" translation are pretty similar (nearly identical). We still use "ages of ages" and "God, be propitious to me..." Still, I have a copy and thoroughly enjoy the translation, as opposed to the RDL or even the Raya/DeVinc translations. I think it could use some work, but its a translation. What translation doesn't need any work?

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #345291 03/15/10 04:36 PM
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There is one mistranslation which I've pointed out to them many times. The received Greek text of the prayer after the epiclesis prays for 'sobriety' or 'watchfulness' of soul not 'purity' or 'cleansing' of the soul. The difference is between the vowels 'eta' and 'iota' both pronounced identically in koine Greek. The problem is that the Melkite powers-that-be determined that the English translation had to follow the Arabic 'original' (sic!). The Arabic mistranslated the Greek word as if it had an iota instead of an eta.

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #345293 03/15/10 04:59 PM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
There is one mistranslation which I've pointed out to them many times. The received Greek text of the prayer after the epiclesis prays for 'sobriety' or 'watchfulness' of soul not 'purity' or 'cleansing' of the soul. The difference is between the vowels 'eta' and 'iota' both pronounced identically in koine Greek. The problem is that the Melkite powers-that-be determined that the English translation had to follow the Arabic 'original' (sic!). The Arabic mistranslated the Greek word as if it had an iota instead of an eta.


I remember reading somewhere that others have made the same mistranslation.

Dn. Robert

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #345303 03/15/10 06:43 PM
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We shall keep the English in line with the "official" (not "original") Arabic text of the liturgy. When it is updated, the English will follow suit.

There are several Melkite churches that use the Greek Divine Liturgy, and in fact most do from time to time, but there are few of the faithful who understand it.

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Matta] #345307 03/15/10 07:08 PM
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On a side note, this is tremendously interesting thread to me, but should this not be somewhere else than in the Ruthenian RDL discussion folder?

While the two matters are similar, they are not intrisicly connected, and the issues affecting one are not those affecting the other.

Quid vobis videtur?

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #345327 03/16/10 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Deacon Robert Behrens
The celebration is a "full" one.

The Litany of the Catechumens is only taken if Catechumens are present, The first set of Angel of Peace petitions are surpressed in the Litany of the Gifts both shared with the RDL.


Originally Posted by Deacon Robert Behrens
There is not one shred of political correctness, or of "horizontal inclusive" language.

"Brothers and sisters in Christ" is used in the 5th petition of the Ektene(Ecumenic Petitions) shared with the RDL.

Of note is the provision for lay people to offer the petitions of the Ektene and join the priest in praying the Prayer of Thanksgiving after Communion.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #345333 03/16/10 02:53 AM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance

The first set of Angel of Peace petitions are surpressed in the Litany of the Gifts both shared with the RDL.


But the option allows for more than one petition. It is still "fuller" than the RDL.

Originally Posted by Deacon Robert Behrens
There is not one shred of political correctness, or of "horizontal inclusive" language.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
"Brothers and sisters in Christ" is used in the 5th petition of the Ektene(Ecumenic Petitions) shared with the RDL.


Perhaps one "shred", but this is minor. There is liberal use of the term "mankind".In the Creed, one finds "for us men and our salvation"

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Of note is the provision for lay people to offer the petitions of the Ektene and join the priest in praying the Prayer of Thanksgiving after Communion.


Interesting. I found the provision re: the Prayer, but could not find the provision re: the Ektene. To which page are you referring?

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #345335 03/16/10 03:10 AM
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Fuller but not the "full" Liturgy and one shred is more than "not one shred".

From Appendix 6, Page 137:

"The Ektene after the Gospel may be shortened or varied, by asking preindicated
people, lay or not, to intone the petitions.
The readers should stand
in the middle of the central aisle and form two groups facing each other, with
the Deacon, if present, standing between them. The Priest or the Deacon
should end each petition by proclaiming in a solemn tone: “We pray to You,
hear us and have mercy.” The first three petitions found on page 50 must be
maintained. The final petition of the Ektene, found on page 51, must always be
maintained as well, because it contains an invocation for the people present."

Last edited by Fr. Deacon Lance; 03/16/10 03:12 AM.

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Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #345341 03/16/10 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance

"The Ektene after the Gospel may be shortened or varied, by asking preindicated
people, lay or not, to intone the petitions.
"


This sounds like a very... roman-catholic influence to me. Am I right? I feel that the byzantine catholic churches become increasingly distant to the original spirit and text of the liturgy... That is very sad for me! It is not in the tradition of the byzantine liturgy for the lay people to intone petitions...

Last edited by LiturgicalStuff; 03/16/10 05:52 AM.
Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: bpbasilphx] #345342 03/16/10 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
On a side note, this is tremendously interesting thread to me, but should this not be somewhere else than in the Ruthenian RDL discussion folder?

While the two matters are similar, they are not intrinsicly connected, and the issues affecting one are not those affecting the other.

Quid vobis videtur?


Interesting question, BpBasil, and one that I thought about as well.

The audiences for the two subjects are rather identical and there had been quite a bit of interest, anticipation, curiousity, etc, among the Ruthenian community as to how the Melkite and Ukrainian retranslations were going to look compared to that of the Pittsburgh Metropolia.

It does occur to me that, shortcomings aside, it's unlikely to generate anywhere near the controversy that the RDL did and would quickly fade away into the archives of the F&W forum while, here (where most posting is to existing threads and thus threads are pushed down on a much less frequent basis), it will remain more readily available for comparison, etc, for a longer period.

I'm not the principal moderator of this particular forum, so I'm going to leave the matter to be decided by someone else.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: Irish Melkite] #345351 03/16/10 09:30 AM
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\\Perhaps one "shred", but this is minor. There is liberal use of the term "mankind".In the Creed, one finds "for us men and our salvation" \\

"Mankind" is a perfectly proper rendering of "anthropos." Usually I've heard "Philanthropos" rendered as "Lover of mankind."

For that matter, in Greek, most of the Epistles are introduced with the word "Adelfoi," which is the plural of both "adelfos" (brother) and "adelfe" (sister).

Therefore, to begin the English epistle with "Brothers and sisters" would not be inaccurate in itself.

Re: New English Translation of the DL For Melkite Greek Catholics [Re: bpbasilphx] #345353 03/16/10 11:05 AM
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\\"The Ektene after the Gospel may be shortened or varied, by asking preindicated
people, lay or not, to intone the petitions. "\\

It might be tried in a few places once or twice, but will never catch on.

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