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One of the points here is that the Melkites are not forbidding a fuller Liturgy as have the Ruthenians.

The Litany after the Gospel, for example, has been missing in most Melkite parishes for a very long time. The Greeks also have mostly lost this Litany. I have been told that the Ecumenical Patriarch is slowly restoring all the litanies to the Liturgy. bpbasilphx might be correct that it will not catch on, but allowing these litanies would not thwart the work of the Spirit should He be desire that they be prayed.

As to "brethren" and "brothers and sisters" we have already noted that those who want a single inclusive term can use "brethren" and those who want to introduce gender differences can use "brothers and sisters". The new translation of the Roman Mass has "Brethren (Brothers and Sisters)" as an accommodation to those who insist on it. But the larger point of Liturgiam Authenticam is that where the faithful might lack understanding the Church should teach them, rather then water down the faith.

For the most part the Revised Divine Liturgy (Ruthenian) does nothing but copy the worst of the Latin ideas that occurred after Vatican II. It is ironic that while the Latins are correcting things that didn't work with their "Reform of the Reform" the Ruthenians are insistent on copying these things that didn't work.

Want to see catechumens prayed for and then dismissed? Don't go a Ruthenian parish as they removed most of the petitions and don't dismiss them. Go to the Roman Catholic parish near my house. They have what appears to be two times during the year when they have formal programs for catechumnens (esp during Advent and Great Lent). During those times during the Mass they invite the catechumens forward, pray for them, and then dismiss them.

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Originally Posted by Administrator
One of the points here is that the Melkites are not forbidding a fuller Liturgy as have the Ruthenians.

The Litany after the Gospel, for example, has been missing in most Melkite parishes for a very long time. The Greeks also have mostly lost this Litany. I have been told that the Ecumenical Patriarch is slowly restoring all the litanies to the Liturgy. bpbasilphx might be correct that it will not catch on, but allowing these litanies would not thwart the work of the Spirit should He be desire that they be prayed.


I think, John, what bpbasilphx was refering to not catching on, was the part about allowing lay people to read the petitions of the litany after the gospel. Talk about a latinization.


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Originally Posted by Administrator
One of the points here is that the Melkites are not forbidding a fuller Liturgy as have the Ruthenians.


They most certainly are, the Aitesis after the Great Entrance is gone same as the RDL. They may have supressed less than the RDL but they have still forbidden the "full" Liturgy.

Originally Posted by Administrator
The Litany after the Gospel, for example, has been missing in most Melkite parishes for a very long time. The Greeks also have mostly lost this Litany.


The Little Litanies have been missing for long time in most Ruthenian parishes.

Originally Posted by Administrator
As to "brethren" and "brothers and sisters" we have already noted that those who want a single inclusive term can use "brethren" and those who want to introduce gender differences can use "brothers and sisters".


I see no option to use brethren, brothers and sisters is inserted in the same petition as the RDL.

Originally Posted by Administrator
For the most part the Revised Divine Liturgy (Ruthenian) does nothing but copy the worst of the Latin ideas that occurred after Vatican II. It is ironic that while the Latins are correcting things that didn't work with their "Reform of the Reform" the Ruthenians are insistent on copying these things that didn't work.


Letting lay people take the deacons petitions is considered one of the worst Latin ideas after Vatican II. The Ruthenains didn't copy that one. I also note the Melkites mandated the Anaphora be aloud.

Originally Posted by Administrator
Want to see catechumens prayed for and then dismissed? Don't go a Ruthenian parish as they removed most of the petitions and don't dismiss them. Go to the Roman Catholic parish near my house. They have what appears to be two times during the year when they have formal programs for catechumnens (esp during Advent and Great Lent). During those times during the Mass they invite the catechumens forward, pray for them, and then dismiss them.


They removed none of the petitions they joined 4 of them into one. As to dismissing the catechumens this is one of the bad ideas criticized in the post Vatican II Roman Rite. It has been criticized as disruptive of the Mass and irrational in logic in todays Church. Why dismiss those preparing for Baptism when non-Catholics indeed non-Christians may remain?


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\\I have been told that the Ecumenical Patriarch is slowly restoring all the litanies to the Liturgy. bpbasilphx might be correct that it will not catch on, but allowing these litanies would not thwart the work of the Spirit should He be desire that they be prayed.\\

While I was specifically referring to laity intoning some petitions, saying that this practice will never be wide-spread and (in my opinion) will justly die out soon, I also agree that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide of and is indeed what makes it DIVINE Liturgy, and not merely human liturgy. This is not to say that new petitions cannot be composed and authorized for use as pastoral need indicates.

Abp. Dmitri of Dallas once said that the liturgy has never been pure, in the sense of being celebrated exactly in one century as it was the previous one.

As far as the Litanies after the Entrance and before the Lord's Prayer, if one is suppressed or omitted, it should the be latter, as this one is the later addition (or so I've been told).

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bpbasilphx,

I tried to send you a private PM, but it said you were over the limit. When you're able, could you contact me via PM?

Thanks!

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Just a disclaimer. I really don't have a problem with the new Melkite Liturgy other than lay people doing the petitions. I just find it unusual that the RDL got so much criticism and the Melkite Liturgy shares many of the same features and and nobody has anything bad to say about it.


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Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
\\I have been told that the Ecumenical Patriarch is slowly restoring all the litanies to the Liturgy. bpbasilphx might be correct that it will not catch on, but allowing these litanies would not thwart the work of the Spirit should He be desire that they be prayed.\\

While I was specifically referring to laity intoning some petitions, saying that this practice will never be wide-spread and (in my opinion) will justly die out soon, I also agree that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide of and is indeed what makes it DIVINE Liturgy, and not merely human liturgy. This is not to say that new petitions cannot be composed and authorized for use as pastoral need indicates.

Thanks to both you and John K for the clarification. I agree that laymen should not be leading petitions.

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Just a disclaimer. I really don't have a problem with the new Melkite Liturgy other than lay people doing the petitions. I just find it unusual that the RDL got so much criticism and the Melkite Liturgy shares many of the same features and and nobody has anything bad to say about it.

Actually, there was quite a discussion about this when it first appeared (about a year ago?). But we don't have as many Melkites participating here as we do Ruthenians (there are about 220 Ruthenian parishes vs 35 Melkite parishes, numberwise there are probably 20,000 Ruthenians vs 10,000 Melkites in the USA (my estimates, not the 'official' claims)).

Further, my understanding from a Melkite I know is that is not really used in too many parishes, but really only at the cathedral in Newton. [No one ever expects the Melkite parish here in Virginia to ever use it.]

Even further, it did not come with mandated music that completely changed what was memorized, and with threats to the clergy that "retirement income was a gift from the bishop" and cries of disloyalty to anyone who asked questions. I could go on.

Of course, the major loss here is that of opportunity. The various Greek Catholic Churches could have worked together to prepare common texts for common texts. Even if it was limited to the clergy texts it would have been a good start. But judging from the issues with both the Ruthenian Revised Divine Liturgy and the 2009 Melkite text it is probably good that there is not one common text.

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
The Little Litanies have been missing for long time in most Ruthenian parishes.

That is irrelevant. They were used in places and they were missed when these prayers were forbidden.

Further, the Liturgical Instruction is very clear on restoring to official forms, not inventing whatever you want. Over the years the people have never asked for the abbreviations. Most have come from Latin-leaning bishops and priests.

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
They removed none of the petitions they joined 4 of them into one. As to dismissing the catechumens this is one of the bad ideas criticized in the post Vatican II Roman Rite. It has been criticized as disruptive of the Mass and irrational in logic in todays Church. Why dismiss those preparing for Baptism when non-Catholics indeed non-Christians may remain?

Merging 4 petitions into one is not the same. The faithful barely have a chance to pray "Lord, have mercy". It was done only because Father Petras wanted the priest's prayer to be intoned out loud.

I would suggest that non-Catholics (those outside the Catholic / Orthodox faithful) should not remain and should be dismissed.

As to your other points, I agree, some of them are in the 2009 Melkite Liturgicon. There is the old adage, just because everyone else is jumping off the cliff is it necessary for you to do so?

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Originally Posted by Administrator
Further, my understanding from a Melkite I know is that is not really used in too many parishes, but really only at the cathedral in Newton. [No one ever expects the Melkite parish here in Virginia to ever use it.]


So everyone is disobeying the decree of the Archbishop?

DECREE
+
IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,
ONE GOD FOREVER AND EVER. AMEN.

WHEREAS, His Beatitude, our Holy Patriarch Gregorios III,
together with the Bishops of the English-speaking Eparchies of the
Melkite Greek Catholic Church have approved the final draft of the
official English translation of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Saint
John Chrysostom,

WE, ARCHBISHOP CYRIL,
By the grace of God, Eparch of Newton,

HEREBY DECREE that this English translation of the Divine
and Holy Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom herein attached, is the
sole, official translation of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Saint
John Chrysostom to be used by all the Clergy in all the churches of
the Eparchy of Newton whenever this Liturgy is prescribed to be
served, and that all other usages are hereby suppressed.


LET THIS DECREE take effect on the fifteenth day of February
in the Year of Our Lord, the two thousand and ninth, and remain in
effect until the last day of October in the Year of Our Lord, the two
thousand and tenth, at which time His Beatitude together with the
Bishops of the English-speaking Eparchies of the Melkite Church
will convene to give final approval to the text.

WHEREUNTO, I hereby set my hand and affix my seal, this
twenty-seventh day of January in the Year of Our Lord, the two
thousand and ninth, the Feast of the Transfer of the Holy Relics of
our Father among the Saints John Chrysostom.

+ Archbishop CYRIL Bustros
Eparch of Newton


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Father Lance,

Yes, I see it at the beginning of the pdf liturgicon.

What about the parishes in Pittsburgh that are not yet doing the Revised Divine Liturgy?

And the parishes that are shelving the teal books and replacing them with home-made books that are text only (despite the mandate from the Council of Hierarchs that only the teal books are allowed and all else is prohibited)?

I'm only reporting what I've been told by a Melkite friend.

John

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Which goes to show how effective mandates are.


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Originally Posted by Administrator
Originally Posted by bpbasilphx
\\I have been told that the Ecumenical Patriarch is slowly restoring all the litanies to the Liturgy. bpbasilphx might be correct that it will not catch on, but allowing these litanies would not thwart the work of the Spirit should He be desire that they be prayed.\\

While I was specifically referring to laity intoning some petitions, saying that this practice will never be wide-spread and (in my opinion) will justly die out soon, I also agree that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate guide of and is indeed what makes it DIVINE Liturgy, and not merely human liturgy. This is not to say that new petitions cannot be composed and authorized for use as pastoral need indicates.

Thanks to both you and John K for the clarification. I agree that laymen should not be leading petitions.


John, Just another clarification. Since the rubrics use the term "lay people," I think that means everyone, laymen and laywomen, could read the petitions to the litany, not just laymen.

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Originally Posted by John K
John, Just another clarification. Since the rubrics use the term "lay people," I think that means everyone, laymen and laywomen, could read the petitions to the litany, not just laymen.

John,

Check any dictionary. The term "laymen" refers to any man who is not ordained and all women. This is exactly the point of Liturgiam Authenticam (#30). Teach the faithful the correct meaning of the terms, and don't change the terms because people lack education.

John

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Which goes to show how effective mandates are.

That is one of my points.

Firstly, the bishops have rejected the clear directives on Liturgy from Rome (that they restore to official forms and allow the Church to be formed by those forms and that they translate completely and correctly). One of the issues here is the whole Church knows about the Liturgical Instruction and Liturgiam Authenticam. Knowing that the Council of Hierarchs has been disobedient to these directives (relying on an approval that is both secret and strange) how can the bishops then demand obedience to their disobedience?

Really the only way forward is to set the stage for organic development and then let the Spirit take over.

I have found, and seen in my own life, that people don't want things shoved down their throat and, when that happens, they reject whatever is being shoved. It is much better to present people with the idea and the product and let them embrace it because it is good (or reject it because it is not good). By banning the Ruthenian Liturgy in favor of one created in a hotel conference room the bishops have told the faithful that their whole liturgical history is not worthy of public celebration. And - by extension - that they are not worthy.

I continue to recommend that the bishops rescind the mandate for the RDL and replace it with a complete, corrected translation that is very accurate and has a consistent style, and that they allow the old melodies and settings that people have memorized. Someone pointed out to me recently that Ruthenians will probably have to close half their parishes in the next 10 years and that it is immoral to take away from the people the songs they knew and loved in their final days. I agree.

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