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Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Lawrence] #345758
03/24/10 01:17 AM
03/24/10 01:17 AM
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Washington
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Rybak Offline
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Clarity on any subject is always a good thing.

Sometimes the facts get missed, particularly in the hype and emotion of a subject.

I urge all of you to read this very thoughtful post from Fr. Dwight Longenecker, a married Roman priest, and let the reality of what he says sink in:

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2010/03/pedophile-priests.html

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Lawrence] #345769
03/24/10 12:42 PM
03/24/10 12:42 PM
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Kansas/UGCC
Diak Offline
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Quote
...but at the same time I would caution against anyone making the assumption that even most of the accusations are true. You can call me cynical, but I just tend to be a little suspicious of cases where individuals come forward seeking damages after many years against priests who are now dead and unable to defend themselves.


Perhaps, but there are also likely a significant number of legitimate victims who never come out at all for whatever reasons.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Diak] #345785
03/24/10 05:39 PM
03/24/10 05:39 PM
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Posts: 2,502
West Coast
Stephanos I Offline
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Diak they are not on the scale of the Catholic Church yet because they have not been exposed yet. Certainly they are there not only in other denominations but also civic groups.
Just wondering why there wasnt an outcry or even a mention in national media when a California school district had over 400 cases against it.

This is not saying these things were not greviously wrong and a crime but think of the motive behind their vehemence against the Church, it is more than a care for the safety and well being of these children.
People will always use any excuse against Christ or Christ Church.

When will we see the whole of society exposed. I doubt if we ever will. Who will be "their" voices crying for justice?
Stephanos I

Last edited by Stephanos I; 03/24/10 05:41 PM.
Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Stephanos I] #345999
03/28/10 06:14 PM
03/28/10 06:14 PM
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John Schweich Offline
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http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/credibility-gap-pope-needs-answer-questions?nocache=1

A very tough editotial from the 03/26/2010 National Catholic Reporter.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: John Schweich] #346002
03/28/10 07:04 PM
03/28/10 07:04 PM
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Posts: 4,678
Georgia
Logos - Alexis Offline
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It is articles like that which make me reconsider freedom of the press.

Here are the remarks by His Eminence, the Archbishop of New York from today's Palm Sunday Mass:

Quote
“May I ask your patience a couple of minutes longer in what has already been a lengthy — yet hopefully uplifting —Sunday Mass?

The somberness of Holy Week is intensified for Catholics this year.

The recent tidal wave of headlines about abuse of minors by some few priests, this time in Ireland, Germany, and a re-run of an old story from Wisconsin, has knocked us to our knees once again.

Anytime this horror, vicious sin, and nauseating crime is reported, as it needs to be, victims and their families are wounded again, the vast majority of faithful priests bow their heads in shame anew, and sincere Catholics experience another dose of shock, sorrow, and even anger.

What deepens the sadness now is the unrelenting insinuations against the Holy Father himself, as certain sources seem frenzied to implicate the man who, perhaps more than anyone else has been the leader in purification, reform, and renewal that the Church so needs.

Sunday Mass is hardly the place to document the inaccuracy, bias, and hyperbole of such aspersions.

But, Sunday Mass is indeed the time for Catholics to pray for “ . . . Benedict our Pope.”

And Palm Sunday Mass is sure a fitting place for us to express our love and solidarity for our earthly shepherd now suffering some of the same unjust accusations, shouts of the mob, and scourging at the pillar, as did Jesus.

No one has been more vigorous in cleansing the Church of the effects of this sickening sin than the man we now call Pope Benedict XVI. The dramatic progress that the Catholic Church in the United States has made — — documented again just last week by the report made by independent forensic auditors — — could never have happened without the insistence and support of the very man now being daily crowned with thorns by groundless innuendo.

Does the Church and her Pastor, Pope Benedict XVI, need intense scrutiny and just criticism for tragic horrors long past?

Yes! He himself has asked for it, encouraging complete honesty, at the same time expressing contrition, and urging a thorough cleansing.

All we ask is that it be fair, and that the Catholic Church not be singled-out for a horror that has cursed every culture, religion, organization, institution, school, agency, and family in the world.

Sorry to bring this up … but, then again, the Eucharist is the Sunday meal of the spiritual family we call the Church. At Sunday dinner we share both joys and sorrows. The father of our family, il papa, needs our love, support, and prayers.”
.

www.whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com

Pray for the Pope!

Alexis

Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 03/28/10 07:06 PM.
Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Logos - Alexis] #346005
03/28/10 08:19 PM
03/28/10 08:19 PM
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USA
Alice Offline
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Prayers for Pope Benedict.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Alice] #346023
03/29/10 03:37 AM
03/29/10 03:37 AM
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MISSOURI
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ALLEN Offline
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So, they want to leave the Church...to a land of milk and honey, no doubt. Lord, to whom shall we go, YOU have the words of eternal life. They will not find those words elsewhere.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: ALLEN] #346027
03/29/10 11:08 AM
03/29/10 11:08 AM
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Posts: 320
Delaware
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The Media, plain and simply does not like Pope Benedict XVI-Joseph Ratzinger. Since the time he was elected to present, they have been trying to demonize him, and it is disgraceful. The allegations in the news is absurd. Read this article from John Allen.

http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/keeping-record-straight-benedict-and-crisis

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Lawrence] #346529
04/10/10 02:44 PM
04/10/10 02:44 PM
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Chicago
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IAlmisry Offline
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Originally Posted by Lawrence

I have no doubt the numbers of Catholic priests who have molested children are shocking and disgraceful, but at the same time I would caution against anyone making the assumption that even most of the accusations are true. You can call me cynical, but I just tend to be a little suspicious of cases where individuals come forward seeking damages after many years against priests who are now dead and unable to defend themselves.

Those who have molested children will one day answer to God for it as will those who have made false accusations.

Christ is risen!

Unfortunately, enough are alive, e.g. John Geoghan, that 6% of all priests accused (including the dead ones) were convicted and 2% sentenced to jail, more than enough to overcome your cynicism. Those who played the shell game, e.g. Cardinal Law, are also still alive: they need not wait till Judgement day, they can appear in a court of law. Or, as Geoghan did, take their punishment now.

Yes, the million who are leaving more than likely would anyway, but the mishandling of this issue by the hiearchy has brought the church and its teaching into disrepute and greased the skids. Mark 9:42. My parish (Orthodox) has benefited because a devoute communicant of the Vatican, a millionaire, gives to our Church instead because, in his words, he doesn't want his hard earned money "go to defend pedophile priests."

No, dropping mandated celebacy won't solve the problem: Protestants sects have a worse problem with this issue. Mandated celebacy should be dropped for other reasons, but not now: it would just let those opposed to the Church's teachings smell blood. And the mismanagers of the church will have to to answer to God for that.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Alice] #346614
04/12/10 05:50 PM
04/12/10 05:50 PM
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Posts: 2,502
West Coast
Stephanos I Offline
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Alice thank you for the prayers.
I wish that people could see through these people to know exactly what they are about! (The destruction of the Church)

True abuses have been committed by a "few" of the clergy.
Actually a much lower ratio amoung Catholics than other denominations.

Why is it that we do not hear people crying out against, police departments, the boy scouts of america, married family members who abuse their children or school departments ( one in California that had 400 cases against it)?
Why is there silence there?

Stephanos I

Last edited by Stephanos I; 04/12/10 05:51 PM.
Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Stephanos I] #346621
04/12/10 06:29 PM
04/12/10 06:29 PM
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Upstate New York
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From of all sources, The Huffington Post, comes an sympathetic, and calming, perspective from, of all people, Alan Dershowitz. He has received much hateful commentary on the original site and I think it was courageous of him to print this:


Posted: April 9, 2010 02:22 PM
Thou Shalt Not Stereotype
Having criticized particular Catholic cardinals for blaming everything -- including the Church's sex scandal -- on "the Jews," let me now come to the defense of the Pope and of the Church itself on this issue. To begin with, this is an extraordinarily complex problem, because the Church has at least five important traditions that make it difficult to move quickly and aggressively in response to complaints of abuse.

The first tradition involves confidentiality, particularly not exclusively the confidentiality of the priest with regard to the penitent. But there is also a wider spread tradition of confidentiality within the Church hierarchy itself.

Second, there is the tradition of forgiveness. Those of us outside the Church often think, perhaps, that the Church goes too far in forgiving. I was shocked when the previous Pope immediately forgave the man who tried to assassinate him. But this episode and other demonstrate that the tradition of forgiveness is all too real.

Third, there is the tradition of the Church regarding itself as a state. The Holy See is a sovereign state. The Catholic Church is not big on the separation of church and state, as are various Protestant denominations. The Catholic Church, like Orthodox Judaism, believes that matters affecting the faithful should generally be dealt within the church, without recourse to secular authorities.

Fourth, the Vatican prides itself on moving slowly and in seeing the time frame of life quite differently than the quick pace at which secular societies respond to the crisis of the day.

Fifth, the Catholic Church has long had a tradition of internal due process. Cannon Law provides for scrupulous methods of proof. The concept of the "devil's advocate" derives from the Church's effort to be certain that every "t" is crossed and every "i" is dotted, even when it comes to selecting saints.

None of these explanations completely justifies the long inaction of the Church in coming to grips with a serious problem. But they do help to explain how good people could have allowed bad things to happen for so long a period of time. Nor is the Catholic Church the only institution that has faced problems of sexual abuse. Every hierarchical body, especially but not exclusively religious ones, has faced similar problems, though perhaps on not so large a scale.

The problem of hierarchical sex abuse has only recently emerged from the shadows. Singling out the Catholic Church and stereotyping all priests is simply wrong.

Pope Benedict, both before he became Pope and since, has done a great deal to confront the issue. He changed the policy that kept allegations of abuse within the authority of local bishops, and he acknowledged that the local option had encouraged shifting abusive priests from parish to parish, thereby hiding their sins from potential new victims. He also met with abuse victims and recognized their victimization. He has not tried, as other members of the Vatican hierarchy have, to publicly blame the problem on "the Jews," "the media," and others.

It is obvious that despite Pope Benedict's good efforts, more must be done, and not only by the Catholic Church but by all institutions that have experienced hierarchical sexual exploitation. They must create structures that assure prompt reporting, a zero-tolerance policy, and quick action, so long as these processes are consistent with due process and fairness, not only to alleged victims but to the accused as well. It's easy to forget, in the face of real victims with real complaints, that there have also been false accusations as well. Processes must be put in place that distinguish true complaints from false ones.

Most importantly, this tragedy should not be used as an excuse to attack a large and revered institution that does much good throughout the world. Blame must be placed with precision and praise should be given with precision as well. The eleventh Commandment, thou shalt not stereotype, must never be forgotten.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: DMD] #347429
04/30/10 10:27 PM
04/30/10 10:27 PM
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Maryland, USA
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I am in total agreement with Stephanos. This type of abuse occurs everywhere, in every denomination, groups of every type - anywhere where adults and young people interact. Somehow, for some reason, the Catholic Church has been singled out as being the example of this horrible sin ..... I truly believe, while this is a heinous abuse of the young, that this is also the well-thought out persecution of the church .... it's as if some "dirt" has been found and is going to be played to the very fullest ... I'm not minimizing it by any means, but in today's culture, the church is a prime target for persecution, as Christ said we would be.
abby

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: amberpep] #347432
04/30/10 11:31 PM
04/30/10 11:31 PM
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Western Australia
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Add to this is the view the Catholic Church has money and is worth the effort of going after.

cool

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: Pavel Ivanovich] #347433
04/30/10 11:43 PM
04/30/10 11:43 PM
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Falls Church, VA
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StuartK Offline
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Less money than you might think, but old myths are hard to dispell.

By the way, credible studies in the U.S. indicate that ten percent of all public school students will be sexually molested in some way by teachers or other employees of the school system. Yet there is no comparable outrage against the public schools--which DO have deep pockets. Schools much more than the Church these days are likely to shift molesting teachers from place to place and to sweep accusations under the rug. Why are we not hounding the Secretary of Education to resign (aside from the fact that the "Safe Schools Czar" is a gay activist and an open supporter of NAMBLA)?

I think we can adduce several reasons:

1. Teachers belong to powerful unions, which protect them through collective bargaining agreements and provide them with high-powered legal counsel, gratis.

2. Those same unions make major contributions to important politicians at the local, state and national level, who in turn insulate teachers from the kind of scrutiny given the Catholic Church.

3. School systems have their own government attorneys, who have the resources to outlast all but the most persistent plaintiffs.

4. Teacher's unions support all the "right" causes, which absolves them from blame or guilt for anything done by their members. If, for some reason, the NEA or AFT opposed abortion and gay marriage, be assured, the gloves would be off in an instant.

Re: 1 Million Catholics In Austria May Leave Church [Re: StuartK] #347436
05/01/10 01:07 AM
05/01/10 01:07 AM
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Western Australia
Pavel Ivanovich Offline
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I recall reading an article in the LA Times on this very topic when I visited the USA in the middle of 2006.

cool

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