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Looks like everyone has had their tail caught in a door. Bottom line: no one in this forum has the answer to my question, so I will let it go at that.
It almost looks like whatever the Patriarch says is true...regardless. Now that I CANNOT believe.

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Allen,

May I recommend asking your questions on one of the various Eastern Orthodox forums. I am sure they will be quite helpful in providing you with the answers.

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Thanks for the suggestion. It does not seem to me that you had your questions answered either. Mine closely paralleled yours. Do you know of any EO Forums?

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Originally Posted by ALLEN
Wow, did this discussion get off the track!! I still do not see answers to the points I raised (or that of Griego Catolico). Of, is there no official teaching in the Orthodox Church(es)??
The liturgical and parliturgical texts authorized by their bishops, and the canons of the ecumenical councils accepted by them.

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Thanks, everyone. This discussion has been revealing

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The Act of Martyrdom in Orthodoxy is a canonization unto itself. The same is true in the Catholic Church, and it was referred to as a "Baptism of Blood." Of course, this has a Scriptural basis with the Acts 7 story of the stoning of St. Stephen.

"Look!" he exclaimed. "I see an opening in the sky, and the Son of Man standing at God's right hand."

The Act of Martyrdom sends one immediately to the throne of God. All that is necessary is the public acknowledgment by the Orthodox Church that one is a Martyr. The Martyrdom was their Canonization.

Any ceremony for a Martyr is really just a declaration of fact.

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Any ceremony for a Martyr is really just a declaration of fact.


Why, then, all the hullaballoo over the beatification of Theodore Romzha? We of the Eastern Churches, particularly the Carpatho-Rusyn and Ruthenian Churches, should simply declare him "Saint Theodore the New Martyr", put him on our calendar as such, and forget about Roman processes, because you are quite right--his martyrdom makes it a simple declaration of fact.

And we should do the same in all cases where similar facts pertain.

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Blessed Theodore's own life gives why... He obeyed Rome to a fault. Even when it meant his suffering well before his martyrdom.

To bypass the process would be counter to his witness. And it makes no difference to the faithful who venerate him and ask him for intercession.

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Blessed Theodore as well as the other Byzantine Catholic matryrs beatified in 2001 are overdue for canonization. It surprises me that the two Roman-rite priests who were beatified the day before Blessed Theodore's beatification are now canonized. Surely, there must be some miracles attributed to them that are being investigated by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.

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The process to being recognised by the Church is a very strange one. I add a link to a story regarding the martyrs of Barbastro in Spain who died during the civil war. Some were declared Blessed while others so far have not. Some had someone from their Order putting matters forward to Rome and some did not, all died the same heroic death however.

http://monknotes.blogspot.com/2006/05/ad-1936-spain-benedictine-martyrs-of.html

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Blessed Theodore's own life gives why... He obeyed Rome to a fault. Even when it meant his suffering well before his martyrdom.

To bypass the process would be counter to his witness. And it makes no difference to the faithful who venerate him and ask him for intercession.


That's pretty weak. So, we'll all just wait around for the Vatican to decide it's time to throw a bone to those fractious Greek Catholics? When will we see the beatification of two men who heartily deserve it, but will never receive it because their witness was to the Tradition of the Eastern Churches, even when it annoyed Rome? Specifically, when will Metropolitan Andrij Sheptytskij and Patriarch Josef Slipyj the Confessor be added to the Festal Menaion?

That aside, the entire Roman process is alien to our Churches, and thus a forced latinization that should be set aside. Who we venerate, and how we select them, is our business and ours alone.

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Unless my reading has misled me the act of canonisation is now seen as an exercise of infallibility by the Pope. So it seems eminently sensible that he should be doing the proclaiming for all his Church.

However beatification is not such an eminent thing and is left to promulgation by a cardinal appointed by the Pope.

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Unless my reading has misled me the act of canonisation is now seen as an exercise of infallibility by the Pope. So it seems eminently sensible that he should be doing the proclaiming for all his Church.


Why do so many Orthodox seem much more ultramontane than even the most diehard Catholic traditionalist--at least insofar as the organization and operation of the Catholic Church is concerned? Could it be that this is necessary to give some degree of traction to their anti-Catholic polemics?

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Originally Posted by Hieromonk Ambrose
Unless my reading has misled me the act of canonisation is now seen as an exercise of infallibility by the Pope. So it seems eminently sensible that he should be doing the proclaiming for all his Church.

However beatification is not such an eminent thing and is left to promulgation by a cardinal appointed by the Pope.


Venerability is left to the local bishop.

Beatification, such as it is, is left to a consistory acting in the name of the pope; its cardinal head making the announcements, when the pope doesn't do so.

Sainthood itself is determined (normally) by this same consistory. But as an infallible declaration of someone being in heaven, it's final check is the pope accepting and promulgating the decision of the consistory.

As to why easterns take longer? The two miracle requirement. Few Romans pay attention to the Beattifications of Easterns.

Martyrs usually hit beatification right quick... but then the wait for the documentable posthumous miracles begins.

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Originally Posted by StuartK
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Unless my reading has misled me the act of canonisation is now seen as an exercise of infallibility by the Pope. So it seems eminently sensible that he should be doing the proclaiming for all his Church.


Why do so many Orthodox seem much more ultramontane than even the most diehard Catholic traditionalist--at least insofar as the organization and operation of the Catholic Church is concerned? Could it be that this is necessary to give some degree of traction to their anti-Catholic polemics?


Was the information I provided incorrect?

I see that Aramis agrees with me.

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