St. Anne Ukrainian Catholic Church in Warrington, PA will be blessing its new iconostasis: http://www.ukrarcheparchy.us/way/THEWAY100627ENG.pdf (scroll down to page 8). It appears to made of glass with etched images of Christ, the Theotokos, and two seraphims.

It's been discussed in previous threads about the movement to a more open style of iconostasis- but, this one looks like quite a leap!

Slava Isusu Khrestu

[text regarding an unrelated topic has been separated into another thread]

The glass iconostasis, I don't like.

The whole concept of the theology of colour as found in iconography seems missing. I remember learning about the uses of colours,the movement from dark to light and the actual lines. Yes, I know that in Romania and parts of Bukovina in UKraine writing/painting with colour in reverse on glass is possible. Yet, these all spoke to me and but the glass as I see it does not do it. Again,I am just one person.

Unworthy
Kolya

I don't like it, either. They are not ugly, but they definitely violate the traditional rules of icon writing.

Dn. Robert

The clergy had better be careful swinging the kadylo.

I think it is interesting!

It might not be my absolute personal favourite, or my personal choice, but obviously, the congregation liked it or they would not have chosen it...I wonder if it was less expensive than a more traditional iconastasis, and if, perhaps that was a determining factor?

I like the way, in the 'new' country of the U.S., Eastern church interiors have kept their traditional beauty while adopting innovative approaches that are not offensive...

Ofcourse, as the French say: 'chacun a son gout' ('to each his own')!!

here's my 2 cents worth:

I think they are quite beautiful.

but still quite wrong.

I don't think they understand how icons and the iconostas function for the Divine Services in the prayer of the faithful.

Seems they have succumbed to notion that they are merely religious decorations and not in themselves foci for worship. Too bad. They are missing out.

Still the good news is that it looks as if they might be easily movable, maybe they can move them to the doors between the vestibute and the narthex or to the doors between the narthex and the sanctuary.

Of course the knottier question remains, are they to be kissed or not? If "yes", then they should probably have a spray bottle of windex very handy at all times....

In Romania, Moldavia and Bukovina there is a tradition of iconography on glass.

There are several competing impetuses I see at work...
1) the Kyivan trdition for non-solid iconostasi so that the faithful can be aware of (especially by hearing) the actions in the sanctuary,
2) the instructive and symbolic need for the Iconostasis to "wall off" the sanctuary,
3) the human desire to see the sanctuary,
4) the need for iconography as focus for veneration,
5) and the rubrical need to place that iconography upon the divider between sanctuary and nave.

Well done glass iconography would fill this nicely; a layer of Plexiglas forming a sandwich (Plexi-glass-plexi) like a triple pane window would protect the glass from a stray censor or ripidia.

I didn't like what I saw in the photo in the PDF, but it doesn't "bother" me, either.

Then again, I miss Monsignor Michael's filigree ironwork iconostas at St Nicks... the wood one is gorgeous, but the old filigree one was a similar compromise to seeing the Altar, holding the Icons, and defining the sanctuary.

I don't like it myself-true, personally i much prefer solid ikonostasy, but this goes beyond taste. With post-iconoclast iconography there is a sense of realism that must be maintained-perhaps not a naturalistic reality, but a dipictable, if spiritualized, reality nonetheless. We can have images because the Uncircumsribable became circumscribable through the Incarnation. When we look at an icon of a saint, do we not see the saint in his resurrected glory? Does not the icon participate in that reality? What I see here is translucent-ghosts. My immediate thought was that I was seeing ghosts, and as such, this "iconostasis" denies the Resurrection both of our Lord and the Theotokos.

For what it's worth, I have a Romanian glass icon, and it is opaque, not translucent (unless one perhaps takes the back off and shines a very strong light through it). It's not like stained glass, but painted like regular icons, except backwards, starting with the top layers and going to the bottom.

In Christ,
Adam

Most of the older extant wooden churches have full iconostases from floor to ceiling with multiple rows of icons, so I am not sure what you mean here.

I just hope the kadylo does not get too close to the iconostas, or an altar server trips near one of these panels.


Like most iconography there are multiple styles; I have seen them not entirely translucent, as this thing being discussed, but with some small areas left translucent such as a mandorla that sort of self-illuminates. I don't disagree that this example being discussed goes far outside of even the glass icon convention.

I think the best compromise would be painting the figures and leaving the background clear...

The unfortunate part to me is that these are not unique, and probably purchased from a catalogue, or least some mass-producing glass manufacturer. The panes with the angels that are on the deacon's doors are exactly the same thing that are on the doors that separate the vestibule and the nave in my former parish of Holy Trinity in New Britain, CT.

I haven't been able to visualize the iconostasis closely enough to tell - but I'd echo John's observation that I think I've seen these before - again, on the doors separating the vestibule and nave, but at the Melkite Cathedral.

I haven't been able to remember from whence those originated (they were added in the 90s). They are actually very attractive in that particular setting - I'm still reserving judgement in the matter under discussion here.

Many years,

Neil

http://stanneukrainiancc.com/photo.html (scroll down to 4th photo)

I guess it will soon be the first time anyone will ever say the sentence "sorry for breaking the iconostasis"

Link is dead.

The iconostasis at Presentation of Our Lord (St Anne's sister parish)is allot nicer in my opinion. It's a traditional iconostasis.

This iconostasis has been evolving since the first icon was mounted between the Holy Table and the people, and its only reasonable that it should continue.

The people use what is readily available and reasonably affordable, our people were surrounded by forests, so they used wood. The Middle eastern people didn't have the abundance of wood, so other materials are used.

Desert dwellers, as in the Southwest USA would use other materials; for those with a local glass factory..glass would be reasonable.

For ironworkers, wrought iron is reasonable...ditto for bronzeworkers. This is as it should be.

I don't know if there is a glass plant or glassetchers in Warrington, but you get my drift. Here in the USA there is an enormous range of materials which are readily available with our wealth.

I was holding out for a wood iconostas at my parish, but I lost out to those who favored bronze (as in the Seminary Chapel). I must admit that its style and mosaic icons are beautiful and I don't look back. But for symbolism, we added four oak panels which mount in the bronze frame below the icons. So you see that you can incorporate the traditional into the modern practical at limited cost. With a little innovative thinking you can make everyone feel at home.

Stuart,

I replaced the link. Chaldobyzantine had linked directly to the photo, rather than the page - freeservers doesn't support such linking to images it hosts.


Many years,

Neil

I don't have the time to write in detail just now, but I have to agree with Deacon Paul. There are myriad iconographic media, now accepted and venerated, many of which were never anticipated in the early years of iconography (and some of which were denounced). These include the reverse glass mentioned already, embroidered, bas-relief, mosaic, frescoed, and others - including digitally produced icons.

Now, one can argue that what is acceptable in an icon does not necessarily translate to what is acceptable in an iconostasis and that the latter is more than a mere vehicle for display of the former. But, frankly, that argument doesn't impress me a lot. We all have preferences - floor-to-ceiling solid, heights from waist to head and everywhere in between, filigreed, and every combination in between that one can imagine, icons on easel stands in missions and poorer parishes.

Maybe, instead of criticizing the parish, we might take joy in the fact that it has an iconostasis, versus the many which do not as yet. Is the importance of the tradition - its essence - in the form or the purpose, to effect a separation of heaven from earth in a manner that visually offers us an image by which we are or ought to be spiritually edified or in how that is accomplished?

One can imagine that, at some future date, when the materials of God's created nature are depleted or forbidden for use, lest they be, that an iconostasis might be constituted by a projected holographic image. Thik about that one.

Many years,

Neil

Way back when (around 1952, at a guess) Father Allen Maloof, of blessed memory, was assigned to Saint George's Melkite Greek-Catholic Church in lower Manhattan (close to the Stock Exchange). The church was a horror, so with commendable good sense, Father Allen re-did the interior, including a rather tasteful glass Iconostasis.

Cardinal Spellman then realized that Saint George's was attracting a good-sized congregation with deep pockets on weekdays to the Divine Liturgy (which was done partly in English). Cardinal Spellman promptly confiscated the church from the Greek-Catholics, sent Father Allen back to Brooklyn, and assigned a Latin priest to Saint George's. The Latins kept the glass iconostasis in the church, because it was distinctive.

Several decades later, in the time of Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), the Greek-Catholics finally regained possession of Saint George's.

Father Allen was assigned to succeed Archbishop Joseph (Raya) as pastor in Birmingham. Unfortunately, he died shortly afterwards.

Fr. Serge

Actually they got it for free. It was donated from another parish in Frackville. At Presentation of Our Lord. The sister parish they have a traditional iconostasis. There must be something in the water in Upper Bucks County PA that effects the way things are done in the Catholic Church as a whole. Check my post out on Presentation of Our Lord.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads...20Ch#Post350348

Sadly, St George's is, today, an upper-end restaurant, but the exterior facade has been preserved due to the City of NY Landmarks Commission. It's detailed discussion of the early history and construction can be read here

Many years,

Neil