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Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #349979 07/09/10 01:03 AM
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Paul B Offline
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Originally Posted by Deacon Robert Behrens
[quote=ajk][quote=storyteller]
Not sure where the "new" rubric comes from in our new archieraticon. However, I've been provided with a you-tube clip of a Hierarchical Liturgy at St. George ROCOR parish in Howell, NJ, on St. George's day. It is interesting to note that the protodeacon faces Met. Hilarion with the Gospel at the Little Entrance. Here's the clip.

Dn. Robert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjG1J4atIqQ&feature=related


Thanks Fr Deacon Robert for the clip reference, but this poor "little Russian" is confused by the vestments. The Hierarchy and priest have gold/white vestment but the deacons, subdeacon and acolytes are wearing white sticharia and RED oraria???? What's up with that? May 10 was a Thursday; St Geeorge is a martyr....shouldn't all the clergy be wearing either red (dark?) or light vestments?

Hmmm, maybe our Rusin Church has been doing it wrong all along?

Last edited by Paul B; 07/09/10 01:06 AM. Reason: trouble with emoticons
Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Lawrence] #349984 07/09/10 06:12 AM
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aramis Offline
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Originally Posted by Lawrence

As somewhat of an outsider, I've got to ask. What are some examples of Hellenization and Russianification in the Ruthenian Church ?


hellenizations: Theotokos instead of Bohorodicen is the most obvious. The new books being essentially greek with some ruthenianizations being another.

As for russifications... large numbers of Russian prostopinije arrangements in 4 part have found their way into the Ukrainian and Ruthenian uses.

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: aramis] #349991 07/09/10 01:20 PM
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What in the world is "Russian prostopinje"? There are polyphonic Kyivan, Obikhod and choral arrangements that would seem to fit this description, but certainly not Carpatho-Rusyn Prostopinje.

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: StuartK] #349993 07/09/10 01:32 PM
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Diak Offline
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Quote
So what do the Old Ritualists do?


The deacon most certainly does not do the intonation at the Small Entrance facing versus populum in any Old Rite hierarchal celebrations I am aware of. The deacon is leading an Entrance and is facing this way for a definite liturgical reason. This reminds me of the Latin Pauline practice to face the people with the Gospel book prior to reading. Perhaps this is an example of neolatinization rather than hellenization or russification?

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Diak] #349995 07/09/10 01:51 PM
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This is still a common practice, one which is violated at one's peril. My daughter was once selected to read for BCY, and did so from the center of the nave, versus apsidem, as opposed to just before the solea, versus populum (normal in the parish). She was never asked to read again.

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Diak] #349999 07/09/10 02:53 PM
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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
So what do the Old Ritualists do?


The deacon most certainly does not do the intonation at the Small Entrance facing versus populum in any Old Rite hierarchal celebrations I am aware of.
Nor does he do so in the you-tube clip of a Hierarchical Liturgy at St. George ROCOR parish given in a previous post. He does turn around afterward, but the bishop is giving the blessing immediately rather than proceeding forward as I believe the Ruthenian Archieratikon specifies. In the clip the bishop also gives a second round of blessings -- 2 then, 4 previously -- before entering the Altar -- again, not in the Ruthenian ritual. (The deacon also appears to make the sign of the cross with the book as opposed to just raising it.)




Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: ajk] #350003 07/09/10 04:38 PM
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The two online videos I have seen of an Old Rite Hierarchical Small Entrance begin after "Premudrost, prosti." Regardless, Deacon Randy is right--they would not face the hierarch.

From Bishop Daniel's funeral:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBC-XJJVzdo

From an Old Rite community in Romania:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX0UsU8BPec

(What did we ever do before YouTube?!)

Dn. David

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Paul B] #350008 07/09/10 07:39 PM
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Deacon Robert Behrens Offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Deacon Robert Behrens
[quote=ajk][quote=storyteller]
Not sure where the "new" rubric comes from in our new archieraticon. However, I've been provided with a you-tube clip of a Hierarchical Liturgy at St. George ROCOR parish in Howell, NJ, on St. George's day. It is interesting to note that the protodeacon faces Met. Hilarion with the Gospel at the Little Entrance. Here's the clip.

Dn. Robert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjG1J4atIqQ&feature=related


Thanks Fr Deacon Robert for the clip reference, but this poor "little Russian" is confused by the vestments. The Hierarchy and priest have gold/white vestment but the deacons, subdeacon and acolytes are wearing white sticharia and RED oraria???? What's up with that? May 10 was a Thursday; St Geeorge is a martyr....shouldn't all the clergy be wearing either red (dark?) or light vestments?

Hmmm, maybe our Rusin Church has been doing it wrong all along?


Great Russian usage has much which is different from our way. I could write a book.

Dn. Robert

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Deacon Robert Behrens] #350029 07/10/10 10:12 AM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Father Deacon Robert tells us:

Quote
I could write a book.


Lead me not into temptation!

Fr. Serge

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: StuartK] #350031 07/10/10 11:59 AM
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Deacon John Montalvo Offline
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Originally Posted by StuartK


First, in liturgical chant, the music is shaped by the language of the text. Thus, the Slavs had to substantially alter the melismatic Greek chants they received from Byzantium to deal with the multi-syllabic consonant clusters prevalent in Slavonic. When the music moves from Slavonic to English, one is confronted by the problem of the missing syllables.


Are you inferring that we should alter the received Prostopinje back to the Greek chant because of missing syllables or should we substanially alter the plain chant to fit the English text?

Re: Send Your Letters Again [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #350035 07/10/10 02:31 PM
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The plainchant should be adapted to accommodate English, even if it requires a degree of simplification. Simplification goes on all the time--what is sung in Mukachevo today bears no resemblance to what Boskaj compiled in 1906 (its much closer to what we were singing, in fact). As someone famously said, "The curlicues don't work". Gradually, a uniquely "American" Prostopinje will emerge, just as Prostopinje evolved out of Kievan Chant, which in turn evolved out of Byzantine Chant.

The beauty of the Byzantine rite is its ability to adapt to whatever culture it is in, while still remaining fundamentally Byzantine.

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