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#350693 - 07/28/10 09:03 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Tim]
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Moderator
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Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
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I am not sure what Stuart means by "serve much the same purpose."
Although my reading of the text of the Service of Holy Anointing leaves me with the clear impression that it is the same Mystery that is celebrated for those near death and so must have the same spiritual effect in that it removes all stain of sin, however grave, I have been told otherwise by several priests and deacons. None has been willing to say that the Mystery accomplishes a "general absolution." Their explanations have included: a characterization of what is done as having no ability to absolve any sin; the assertion that what is done absolves only "venial" sin; and the suggestion that what is done absolves all sin but only conditionally (i.e., that any grave sin must be confessed to a priest as soon as practicable and absolution received/confirmed then).
I raised this point before on this site and, as I recall, was not able to elicit any definitive views from others here. Is there, perhaps a difference between Eastern Catholic views and the Orthodox view? Are there differing views in other Eastern Christian Churches? Well allow me to say it: Anointing of the Sick accomplishes a general absolution. "O You who are without beginning, eternal, and the Holy of Holies, who have sent your only begotten Son to heal every infirmity and weakness of our souls and bodies; send down your Holy Spirit and sanctify + this oil. May it bring for your servant who is about to be anointed with it, the complete forgiveness of his sins and the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven. For it behooves You to be merciful and to save us, O our God, and we give glory to You, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, now, always and forever and ever. Amen. (Epiclesis for the oil from: The Sacrament of Holy Unction, Byzantine Melkite Euchologion, published by the Melkite Eparchy of Newton).
_________________________
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#350696 - 07/28/10 09:23 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Penthaetria]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 9770
Loc: USA
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There is clearly a difference between private sin, which should never be disclosed to the community, and public sin, which is already known the community. The tendency in recent centuries seems to be to treat all sin as private, even when it clearly isn't ... Unless one is a "celebrity," in which case all sins are deemed public property and fodder for endless speculation. LOL...and also, it seems that public sin makes them richer too! First comes the public 'outing' and shame, and then, if it is a woman, often she then gets the Playboy big bucks offer, and then ofcourse comes the book, and maybe after, there is even a movie! After all, it is in these times that the motto 'no publicity is bad publicity' rings true. What a sign of the sinful and pathetic times we live in....
Edited by Alice (07/28/10 09:24 PM)
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#350700 - 07/29/10 01:44 AM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Epiphanius]
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Member
Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 653
Loc: DC area
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People who are in the public eye (entertainers and athletes, as well as religious, civil, and business leaders) are subject to greater scrutiny than the general public--I think that's inevitable. Nevertheless, once a sin is made public (assuming there is credible evidence to support the allegations) it becomes a public sin and IMHO this necessitates some kind of public repentance. I respectfully disagree. For example, Tiger Woods' sins became quite public, but I don't see how his repentance needs to be public. His sin was not against "the public" but against his wife and family (and God), and -- in my mind -- that is where confession, repentance, and penance/reparations belong. On the other hand, the sins of the Enron and Wall Street executives became public and affected the public; their confessions and repentance, and penance/reparations do belong in the public eye. Straddling the two are those public officials who betray their marital vows AND their public trust. I can't remember his name or state, but the governor who gave his mistress unmerited raises from the public coffers has, IMO, to make both public and private penance having committed both public and private sins. (Are we far enough off-topic yet?)
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#350733 - 07/29/10 05:11 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Penthaetria]
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Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 838
Loc: Florida
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... once a sin is made public (assuming there is credible evidence to support the allegations) it becomes a public sin and IMHO this necessitates some kind of public repentance. I respectfully disagree. For example, Tiger Woods' sins became quite public, but I don't see how his repentance needs to be public ... Penthaetria, I wasn't thinking so much of people like Tiger Woods, who doesn't profess to be a Christian. More of people like Mel Gibson, who is known to be (or to have been) a practicing Catholic and who made that movie, "The Passion of the Christ." Also, of Catholic politicians who consistently vote contrary to Church teachings. But in particular, I was thinking of those priests who have caused so much harm to the Church by abusing children. Should there not be a venue for them to show the Church--and the world--that they are truly repentant, should they wish to do so? Even one priest doing this would bring about a great deal of healing, for himself as well as for the faithful. Peace, Deacon Richard
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#350734 - 07/29/10 06:41 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Epiphanius]
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Member
Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 653
Loc: DC area
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But in particular, I was thinking of those priests who have caused so much harm to the Church by abusing children. Should there not be a venue for them to show the Church--and the world--that they are truly repentant, should they wish to do so? Even one priest doing this would bring about a great deal of healing, for himself as well as for the faithful.
Oh, absolutely! For these priests HAVE sinned against the people, even though they did so in private. Yes, their penitence should be public.
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#350735 - 07/29/10 07:15 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Penthaetria]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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I'm thinking there are a lot of heathen penguins who would benefit mightily from hearing the Word. A monastery at McMurdo Sound is just the place for reprobate priests to work out their salvation with fear and tredpidation.
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#350747 - 07/30/10 03:30 AM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
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I'm thinking there are a lot of heathen penguins who would benefit mightily from hearing the Word. A monastery at McMurdo Sound is just the place for reprobate priests to work out their salvation with fear and tredpidation. I'm afraid that the heathen penguins or the fellow co-monks wouldn't be delighted by such company.
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#350764 - 07/30/10 09:54 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: Penthaetria]
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Member
Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 886
Loc: Las Vegas
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There is clearly a difference between private sin, which should never be disclosed to the community, and public sin, which is already known to the community. The tendency in recent centuries seems to be to treat all sin as private, even when it clearly isn't ... Unless one is a "celebrity," in which case all sins are deemed public property and fodder for endless speculation. And if it doesn't come out by speculation, find a way to leak it.  And if that doesn't work, make a sex tape and leak it. Who sang that "When you're a celebrity" song a couple of years ago?
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#350765 - 07/30/10 09:56 PM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: PeterPeter]
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Member
Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 886
Loc: Las Vegas
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I'm afraid that the heathen penguins or the fellow co-monks wouldn't be delighted by such company.
And just what would we do with Christianized penguins? Just one would be enough to keep the theologians busy for centuries . . . 
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#350770 - 07/31/10 01:05 AM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 924
Loc: SF Bay, CA USA
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I'm thinking there are a lot of heathen penguins who would benefit mightily from hearing the Word. A monastery at McMurdo Sound is just the place for reprobate priests to work out their salvation with fear and tredpidation. (imprisoned ) is the phrase I love in Pro Russia. The Russicum and Catholic Work for Russia, I'm reading which someone here, I think Neil, suggested. Forgive me, I couldn't help thinking of Officer Krupke.
Edited by likethethief (07/31/10 01:22 AM)
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#350771 - 07/31/10 03:45 AM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: dochawk]
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Member
Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
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I'm afraid that the heathen penguins or the fellow co-monks wouldn't be delighted by such company.
And just what would we do with Christianized penguins? Just one would be enough to keep the theologians busy for centuries . . . I heard a theologian seriously speculating about the possibility of baptising an extraterrestrial. But my intention was to say that sending ecclesiastical criminals (particularly sexual) to monasteries is a rather unfriendly gesture towards the monks, who probably do not enjoy the company of inverts, and I can understand them.
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#350773 - 07/31/10 05:50 AM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: dochawk]
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Member
Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: Texas/USA
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I think the song you refer to was sung by the CW singer Brad Paisley - it's a hoot!
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#350774 - 07/31/10 05:58 AM
Re: celibate priests as better able to attend at our confession
[Re: sielos ilgesys]
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Member
Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: Texas/USA
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got kicked offline...check out
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_(Brad_Paisley_song)
Edited by sielos ilgesys (07/31/10 06:06 AM)
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