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Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Carson Daniel] #350662 07/28/10 03:33 AM
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Dr. Eric Offline
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Someone needs to list how many Bishops of Jerusalem there are.

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Dr. Eric] #350669 07/28/10 05:02 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Someone needs to list how many Bishops of Jerusalem there are.


You really want to know?

There are 10 (an 11th is questionably extant) canonical jurisdictions among the Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches, but only 7 of the 10 sees are of episcopal rank (the questionable one is also of episcopal rank, if it is extant):

... 4 Oriental Orthodox, 1 Eastern Orthodox, 1 Assyrian (ACOE, questionable), 1 Latin Catholic, 2 Oriental Catholic (both patriarchal exarchates, neither headed by a bishop), 1 Maronite Catholic (a patriarchal exarchate, not headed by a bishop), and 1 Eastern Catholic

Ancient Church of the East: Jerusalem Archbishopric of the Holy Land & Mount Of Olives
(not sure if this is extant, it doesn't appear in the current list of the ACOE's Holy Snynod)

Armenian Apostolic: Patriarchate of St James in Jerusalem

Armenian Catholic: Patriarchal Exarchate of Amman & Jerusalem

Coptic Orthodox: Metropolitan Archbishopic of the Holy and Great City of Our Lord, Jerusalem, Holy Zion, All Palestine, Philadelphia of Jordan, & All the Near East

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahado: Archbishopric of Jerusalem

Greek Orthodox: Patriarchate of Jerusalem

Latin: Patriarchate of Jerusalem of the Latins

Maronite: Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem & Palestine

Melkite: Patriarchal Archdiocese of Jerusalem of the Melkites

Syriac Catholic: Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem & Amman

Syriac Orthodox: Metropolitan Patriarchal-Vicariate of Jerusalem & Jordan

Several other Churches (MP/ROC and Romanian OC come to mind) have a formal presence, but the ranking prelate is an archimandrite and these are not, as far as I know, formally titled jurisdictions.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Irish Melkite] #350671 07/28/10 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite


There are 10 (an 11th is questionably extant) canonical jurisdictions among the Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches, but only 7 of the 10 sees are of episcopal rank (the questionable one is also of episcopal rank, if it is extant):

... 4 Oriental Orthodox, 1 Eastern Orthodox, 1 Assyrian (ACOE, questionable), 1 Latin Catholic, 2 Oriental Catholic (both patriarchal exarchates, neither headed by a bishop), 1 Maronite Catholic (a patriarchal exarchate, not headed by a bishop), and 1 Eastern Catholic


I think only the Armenian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate is not headed by a bishop.

As far as I know the Syriac Catholic Patriarchal Exarch is Bishop Pierre Melki and the Maronite Archbishop of Haifa Paul Nabil Sayyah is also Patriarchal vicar for Jerusalem.

By the way, there is also an Anglican and a Lutheran bishop of Jerusalem, currently both are Palestinians.

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: ag_vn] #350672 07/28/10 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ag vn
I think only the Armenian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate is not headed by a bishop.

As far as I know the Syriac Catholic Patriarchal Exarch is Bishop Pierre Melki and the Maronite Archbishop of Haifa Paul Nabil Sayyah is also Patriarchal vicar for Jerusalem.



While the Maronite and Syriac Catholic jurisdictions may be headed by bishops presently, neither is a canonical jurisdiction of episcopal status (one that requires that it be headed by a bishop).

Jerusalem is not within the 'historical bounds' of the Maronite or Syriac patriarchates and, therefore, neither Church can erect a canonical jurisdiction of episcopal right there - to do so requires the approval of Rome.

Thus, the two (and that of the Armenians) are styled as patriarchal exarchates. The sole EC/OC Church with jurisdictional authority in Jerusalem is that of the Melkites - derived from the extension of office conferred on Maximos III Mazloom - to be 'of Alexandria & of Jerusalem'.

The Maronite Patriarchal site indeed combines the Patriarchal Vicariate of Jerusalem & Palestine with Sayedna Boulos' Archeparchy of Haifa and the Holy Land in its list of jurisdictions. However, the last edition of Annuario Pontificio that I consulted showed no bishop for the former. Checking just now, I see that David Cheney's Catholic-Hierarchy.org, which relies on the AP for its listings of Sees, also does not report it as such.

Mar Pierre is an Auxiliary of Antioch of the Syrians and it has not been uncommon in the past for the Melkites, Maronites, and Syrians to assign patriarchal auxiliaries to head up the various patriarchal dependencies, vicariates, and exarchates. Since the Syriacs don't have a synodal listing on-line (or even a website, regretably), I can't determine his assignment(s). However, as with the Maronite jurisdiction, there is no bishop formally cited as assigned there and it is also not documented as a canonical jurisdiction of episcopal status.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Irish Melkite] #350673 07/28/10 10:08 AM
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Yes, I know Patriarchal Exarchs/Vicars, etc. are not titled "of Jerusalem", they are bishops of other sees. But in common Paschal and/or Christmas messages of the heads of the churches in the Holy Land, namely Bishop Pierre Melki and Archbishop Nabil Sayyah sign for the respective Exarchates.

http://www.gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/jeru4.htm

http://www.gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/jeru5.htm

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: ag_vn] #350675 07/28/10 10:32 AM
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Chow includes the representative of the Chaldeans, about whom I had forgotten. It is a patriarchal exarchate or dependency (I forget which) headed by a chorepiscopus. So, the count is up to 11 or 12, overall, without including the Lutheran and Anglican hierarchs (and I think another Protestant church has a bishop there as well.)

Many years,

Neil

Last edited by Irish Melkite; 07/28/10 10:47 AM. Reason: typo

"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Irish Melkite] #350683 07/28/10 05:57 PM
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I think the One Bishop, One City idea, while valid, is no longer appropriate. The cities of today are too big. Only one bishop for the 8 million Catholics who live in Mexico City proper, not counting the suburbs?

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Dr. Eric] #350698 07/29/10 02:10 AM
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Oh, I think you could certainly break up the larger urban dioceses into smaller ones based on boundaries prior to modern incorporation. For instance, the Archdiocese of New York could be broken down not just according to the five boroughs, but each borough could be broken down based on the townships from which they were amalgamated. One could be, e.g., Bishop of Flatbush, or of Bensonhurst, or of Brooklyn (which was just one town in the County of Kings); Queens offers a wealth of possibilities: Flushing, Astoria (probably reserved for the Greeks), Rockaway (a good part time post for a bishop who only serves in the summer). Even Manhattan can be broken down.

I think you could do the same to almost any modern city, because modern metropolitan areas are much larger than their forebears. Moreover, this is the pastorally prudent thing to do, since a bishop ought to be familiar with and to his flock, and that's hard to do if he's responsible for a million or more souls. I've frequently said that industrial scale Christianity does not work.

This is not likely to be a popular idea, since it is administratively and politically advantageous to keep down the number of dioceses--less overhead, and the importance of an individual bishop is proportional to the number of other bishops with whom he must share responsibility.

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: StuartK] #350704 07/29/10 07:14 AM
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Stuart,

While I don't disagree entirely with what you've suggested, another limiting factor is finding a satisfactory number of qualified presbyters to fill the additional Sees.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: StuartK] #350714 07/29/10 03:06 PM
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Bishop of Flatbush? I'm afraid this could (and would) provoke considerable mirth. Maybe "Deliverance from Flatbush"!

Fr. Serge

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #350717 07/29/10 05:31 PM
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If Flatbush won't serve, Bishop of Bensonhurst is nicely alliterative. But if Astoria is reserved for the Greeks, then Brighton Beach belongs to the Russians.

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: StuartK] #350746 07/30/10 05:59 AM
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If memory serves me right, what we'd now call Northwest Africa (Carthage and the surrounding area- a major economic center in the Western Mediterranean) had hundreds of Bishops during Late Antiquity. These bishops served what we now would call towns.

Some of this can still be seen in some diocesan structures. Cyprus I believe has 17 bishops. On mainland Greece, apparently insignificant towns have bishops - I can think of Edessa or the bustling metropolis of Ierissos on the Halkidiki Penninsula. The latter jurisdiction's non-monastic population consists of probably around one dozen villages and is probably only a little bigger than Rhode Island. Still, I believe that See is over 1000 years old (predating recorded history of its significant monastic population) and that the area probably has more people now than it ever did.

But these are just my impressions. If anyone has reference to hard fact, feel free to chime in.

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: StuartK] #350748 07/30/10 09:45 AM
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Maybe there could be a Bishop of Bay Ridge?

Fr. Serge

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #350753 07/30/10 01:12 PM
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"His Grace (N.), Bishop of Yonkers and All Lands Beyond the Hudson..."

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City [Re: Diak] #350759 07/30/10 08:44 PM
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The problem with multiple bishops in a metropolitan area is the high rate of movement of residence within a metro area, whilst still not leaving the metro.

That leads to both parish shopping (already a problem) and discontinuity of praxis (also a problem). The greater Bay area in CA has several dioceses; there are notable discontinuities there, and people complain about them. People drive 40+ miles and across the diocesan boundary. And that ignores the ECC's.

Discontinuity of praxis can be reduced by deaneries/vicarates-forane to handle the administrative issues and advise the bishops; this has become standard in some large Catholic and some Orthodox dioceses.

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