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#350720 - 07/29/10 02:15 PM Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism.
griego catolico Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 934
Loc: Sunny California
Many of you may already have heard the tragic news of the death of an infant that occurred during a baptism at an Orthodox parish in Moldova. News reports state that the priest involved did not cover the infant's mouth and nose while immersing.

This leads me to the following questions: How is a priest supposed to hold an infant when baptizing? Is he supposed to use one hand to cover its nose and mouth?

I have been to several baptisms and the priest needs to hold the infant with both hands in order to prevent the child from slipping out of his arms. I have never seen a priest use his hand to cover an infant's mouth or nose. The immersion is quite quick to prevent an infant from breathing in water. I would think that having only one hand to hold the baby while using the other to cover its nose and mouth increases the risk of the infant slipping out of the priest's hands during the baptism itself.



Edited by griego catolico (07/29/10 02:34 PM)

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#350722 - 07/29/10 02:37 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: griego catolico]
Philippe Gebara Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/06
Posts: 799
Loc: Rio de Janeiro/ RJ - Brazil
As far as I know, babies do not drown.

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#350730 - 07/29/10 03:25 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: Philippe Gebara]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Babies cannot drown unless held underwater for more than a minute. They instinctively hold their breath, and will hold it until the pass out. Anyone who has taken their infant to a waterbabies class knows this--you take the baby, put him under the water, and push him off; the baby then doggy paddles to his other parent about three or four feet away, who picks him up. Babies love it.

So, obviously, something else happened to the baby. And holding the baby's nose is definitely not on--it only causes the baby to panic, making him more, not less likely to inhale water.

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#350851 - 08/03/10 01:31 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: StuartK]
griego catolico Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 934
Loc: Sunny California
Here is a news report with video of the actual baptism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtY2BFs4BLc&feature=related

I viewed several baptisms posted on Youtube and there is a variety of ways to baptize.
Greek baptisms have the infant placed in the fount with a small amount of water and then the priest pours water over the infant's head.
Russian baptisms have the priest immersing the infant usually feet first into a fount full of water, although there was one in which the baby was placed in the fount and the priest poured water with a pan.

In the video involving the Moldovan Orthodox priest, he appears to baptize the child head first into the water.

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#350853 - 08/03/10 02:43 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: griego catolico]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Headfirst can work. We had an exercise at the pool where the babies were dunked head first. They shut their little mouths, just like they were programmed to do. Whether the baby is completely covered, or has to have water poured over him, depends entirely on the size of the font.

Rule number one, though--always point male babies downrange. You never know when they might go off.

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#350897 - 08/04/10 04:49 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: StuartK]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 832
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Rule number one, though--always point male babies downrange. You never know when they might go off.

I wonder if this is the reason the RCC gave up doing baptisms by immersion, LOL! biggrin

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#350901 - 08/04/10 05:28 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: Epiphanius]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
I am having trouble finding any serious news organizations carrying this news item. Has the story been properly confirmed?

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#350996 - 08/08/10 03:50 AM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: Latin Catholic]
Irish Melkite Online   content

Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8423
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
I am having trouble finding any serious news organizations carrying this news item. Has the story been properly confirmed?


LC,


http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/29-07-2010/114414-baby_baptism-0


http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5iThnjWYX_rPdRA_xFCS53J-yDZWA

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#351002 - 08/08/10 07:02 AM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: Irish Melkite]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Thanks for the links, Neil.

This is a strange and sad story.

If Stuart is right that infants cannot drown, I wonder what went wrong in this case?

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#351003 - 08/08/10 08:46 AM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: Latin Catholic]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
The Pravda story says there was bruising and bleeding of the soft tissue in the neck, which would indicate someone squeezed the baby, whether accidentally or deliberately. This would cause the baby to cry out, inhaling water. It remains to be seen whether the child actually drowned (water entered the lungs causing pulmonary edema) or the entry of water caused a reflexive closing of the epiglottis resulting in asphyxia. Either way, it looks like excessive force was used during the baptism, resulting in the death of the infant.

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#351004 - 08/08/10 09:47 AM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: StuartK]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
If Stuart is right that infants cannot drown


I actually said that infants cannot drown simply by being placed under water. They will asphyxiate if held down so long that they pass out for lack of oxygen to the brain. And they can be made to inhale water by squeezing or hurting them so that they cry out in pain under water. It's very rare to find a dead infant who actually has water in his lungs.

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#351005 - 08/08/10 09:59 AM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: StuartK]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1445
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Quote:
If Stuart is right that infants cannot drown


I actually said that infants cannot drown simply by being placed under water. They will asphyxiate if held down so long that they pass out for lack of oxygen to the brain. And they can be made to inhale water by squeezing or hurting them so that they cry out in pain under water. It's very rare to find a dead infant who actually has water in his lungs.

Thanks for the clarification. Obviously, to baptize an infant, there is absolutely no need to hold it under water long enough to cause asphyxiation.

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#351016 - 08/08/10 04:09 PM Re: Where should a priest place his hands during infant baptism. [Re: Latin Catholic]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 5764
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Sebastian Junger has an accurate and harrowing description of the mechanics of drowning towards the end of A Perfect Storm. Not for the faint of heart.


Edited by StuartK (08/08/10 04:09 PM)

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