The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
son of the desert, chchannel, OrbisNonSufficit, SergLts, RusFrog
5656 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
3 members (matandch, 2 invisible), 156 guests, and 159 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
Russian Greek Catholic Global Congress
by likethethief, June 12
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,879
Posts412,862
Members5,656
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Michael_Thoma #351182 08/13/10 02:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,542
John
Member
Offline
John
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,542
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I thought the above claim that our courts are enforcing Sharia to be a bit over-the-top so I dug into it.. the first judge's mistaken opinion was quickly overturned:

http://freethinker.co.uk/2010/07/27...2%80%93-but-gets-short-shrift-on-appeal/

Canadian courts are not enforcing Sharia either:
http://guyanafriends.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/860604972/m/240101305

Michael,

Actually, it's not over the top. It is a very sad day when a higher court has to over rule a lower court's decision that respected sharia. That a lower court rule with any respect to sharia is scary.

As for the Canadian case, the defense lawyer was smart enough to plead not sharia but PTSD. There are other cases both here and in Canada, not to mention that parts of London and Paris are in fact unofficially ruled by sharia.

I know I won't convince you of anything. But I do recommend you read first hand abotu the Cordoba Initiative. There is no lack of evidence that the goal of Islam is to establish a world wide caliphate and to make Christians subservient. The Isalmists are quite open about it. There is a lot of good information on respected websites (do a Google search on "sharia united states" or "sharia canada" etc.).

John

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Administrator #351185 08/13/10 03:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,628
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,628
I don't disagree with you that there are extremists (Wahabists) in Islam who which to impose Sharia, etc.. (just as there are extremist protestants which want the government to impose evangelical values) but to say our courts are supporting this is a little conspiratorial in my opinion... I agree with you that the lower court judge was misguided, but her ruling wasn't that the man was cleared because of Sharia, but that the man's action was lacking mens rea - this is due to the judge's secular/relativistic worldview, which lacks the perspective that we hold as Orthodox Catholics- that all human beings belong to the natural order and are therefore subject to 'natural law' (and/or Divine Law), and that this natural law is intrinsic within our makeup.

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Michael_Thoma #351186 08/13/10 05:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,225

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Michael_Thoma #351189 08/13/10 08:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,133
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I don't disagree with you that there are extremists (Wahabists) in Islam who which to impose Sharia, etc.. (just as there are extremist protestants which want the government to impose evangelical values) but to say our courts are supporting this is a little conspiratorial in my opinion... I agree with you that the lower court judge was misguided, but her ruling wasn't that the man was cleared because of Sharia, but that the man's action was lacking mens rea - this is due to the judge's secular/relativistic worldview, which lacks the perspective that we hold as Orthodox Catholics- that all human beings belong to the natural order and are therefore subject to 'natural law' (and/or Divine Law), and that this natural law is intrinsic within our makeup.


Frankly I find any attempt to compare fundamentalist Christians to fundamentalist Islamists in this case Wahabists more than a little distasteful.

I am sure you aren't implying that fundamentalist protestants pose the same threat to our country as Islamist radicals do, are you?

That aside, the building of a mosque at ground zero would be akin to building a monument to the fallen Kamikaze at Pearl Harbor.

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Alice #351206 08/14/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 147
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 147
As in the "faith" of these terrorists, anyone who does not believe as they do, are considered "infidels." With that in mind, how could we possibly allow these individuals to build anywhere near Ground Zero. I live outside of D.C., and believe me, although it was not nearly as horrific as the tragedy in N.Y., to see the Pentagon hit, burning, knowing people there .... well, it is very upsetting and brings back those memories. And, now we are considering these people, who consider us "infidels" to build their Mosque, knowing full well how we are viewed and their intent on changing everyone to their way of "faith?"
How absurd.
abby

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
amberpep #351222 08/15/10 08:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 357
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 357
Why not rebuild the Orthodox Church that was there first. Then worry about other proposed sites. Chad

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
chadrook #351236 08/15/10 10:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 950
What happened is an act of war, gained by a Islamic organization. They thought, they planned, they had no boundary, they succeeded, America lost at home, simply as Good day. And it is only the beginning.

They triumphed and now have a good example. They know that it is possible. And they will use any weapon. Without mercy.

I do not agree any political correctness. Perhaps the USA must do a smarter foreign politics for long term. What happens now only weakens America.

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Marian #351289 08/17/10 05:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
E
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
The situation with Muslims in the United States right now is very similar to that of Gays: they've succeeded in posturing themselves into a de facto "protected minority" status. (This is actually more effective than a de jure status, since nobody can take it away because nobody is really sure how they got it in the first place.)

I heard some quotes from President Obama yesterday on the radio. In the first one, he emphasized the "religious freedom" aspect, acknowledging only that the location was a "sensitive issue" for the families of the victims of 9-11 (only for their families?). In the second one, he "explained" what he meant in the first quote, emphsizing that he had questioned the "widsom" of the chosen location.

"Wisdom" is a serious understatement. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf's group chose this location deliberately, clearly intending to send a message to the world--one of Islamic victory. It's hard for me to see how just a few verbal reassurances from Imam Rauf can make a whole country think he's their friend.

Let us not forget that Muslim imams have long been pointing to the decadence of Western culture as proof of the "failure" of Christianity ...


Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Epiphanius #351291 08/17/10 05:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,217

Does anyone know the status of St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, that was destroyed on 9-11 ?

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Epiphanius #351292 08/17/10 05:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
T
Tim Offline
Greco-Kat
Member
Offline
Greco-Kat
Member
T
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 282
I am not clear on what the opponents of the proposed mosque/cultural center are proposing. Since, as I understand it, the structure will be located about two blocks away and out of sight of the twin-towers site, how is "ground zero" being defined. Would there be objections to a mosque/cultural center being constructed six or eight blocks away? Elsewhere in lower Manhattan? Elsewhere in the five boroughs? If these expansive definitions were applied, what would become of mosques/cultural centers already built and operating in NYC? How would this principle be applied in the Washington, DC/Northern Virgnia area?

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Epiphanius #351294 08/17/10 06:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 571
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 571
Slava Isusu Christu!

The State should protect the right of religious groups to build centers of religious practice, temples, churches, synagogues, Masjids, etc. Islam is not a monolithic religion. It is split into over a hundred sects and even in the sects imams and Muslims have differing opinions about Quranic doctrine, Islamic jurisprudence, fatwahs, rulings, commentary on Hadith, etc. They should be allowed to build and the government should also monitor their activities. This is a good compromise.

Islam holds to the notion that religion should be defended and propagated by the sword, just as Christianity was also spread with the sword and effectively used the power of the State to suppress other groups and dissidents. In the 21st Century religion is seen as a pacifist ideology or something for those who seek the abolition of warfare and all fighting, when clearly this is not either the traditional Catholic, Orthodox, or Jewish teaching. Islamic Scholars have said that Mohammad received his notion of Jihad actually from the Hebrew Scriptures and from Jews he had encountered aside from revelations to take up arms in the Cause of Allah which he received from Jibril or Gabriel. For those who long for the restoration of the State Church and the Emperor, there should be a recognition that the pluralism we enjoy would be subject to scrutiny or abolition as in an Islamic state under Sharia law. The Law of God and the State would be one and inter-connected.

I am grateful for the change of social doctrine within Christianity, particularly Catholicism, to one which upholds democracy and religious freedom--a reality which does not exist in the tradition, especially the Papal tradition in which "error has no rights." Vatican II was a blessing in abrogating that notion. Islam has no Pope or Emperor as with Protestantism, Old Calendar Orthodoxy, Old Catholicism or the numerous Protestant and Evangelical groups in which to fix the problem of dis-unity and have true reform at a worldwide level. This makes the problem of excluding an Islamic group from building a Mosque or Masjid even greater. Punishing this group for its possible extremist tendencies also punishes other Muslim groups from building in the area, like the Ahmadiis who are a pacifist Islamic sect, which is not recognized by most Sunni or Shia Muslim leaders, who may be thrown in with the stereotype that all Muslims are warmongers and Jihadists.

I say let the Mosque be built and hopefully it will help re-build the community there in a positive way. Along with that let the State inform them that they will be monitored accordingly, not at the expense of religious expression, but for the safety of all people in the area and nationally. That is just the 21st Century--all Churches are being subjugated to State investigation including the Catholic Church--so there is no discrimination in that regard.

Contrariwise, I can see the side of the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim families who object to the building of the Masjid. And it is a political statement to build a Mosque in that area of NY City. It appears they are trying to get the government to discriminate against them so they can sue them and take it to the Supreme Court so as to protect definitely the rights of Muslims from discrimination in the future and thereby prepare for Sharia Jurisprudence to be made legal as an alternative to our current Judicial system. This is a very strategic action on their part and now with the support of Obama, they have a better case if they take this to court.

These are deep questions and very sensitive ones; and we thought questions of religious freedom were already dealt with--yeah right!

In Christ,


Robert

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Robert Horvath #351303 08/17/10 11:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church should be rebuilt at Ground Zero!

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Pani Rose #351305 08/18/10 12:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,943
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,943
Originally Posted by Pani Rose
St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church should be rebuilt at Ground Zero!


see the status here

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Alice #351332 08/18/10 04:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,943
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,943
NEWS REPORTS ON REBUILDING OF ST. NICHOLAS CHURCH AT GROUND ZERO

NEW YORK – Fox News Channel will broadcast numerous times today, August 18, 2010, a report on the stalled negotiations between the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America and the Port Authority of NY and NJ for a proper location for the rebuilding of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church. St. Nicholas Church was destroyed on September 11, 2001 when the South Tower of the World Trade Center came crashing down on it.

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese has responded to the national news networks that have reached out requesting more information on the reasons for the delay in rebuilding the Church.

To find links to news broadcasts, to learn more about St. Nicholas Church at Ground Zero, or to donate for the rebuilding click on to www.goarch.org or text REBUILD to 27722 and $10 will be added to your mobile phone bill and it will be earmarked for the St. Nicholas rebuilding.

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was founded in 1916 by a group of Greek immigrants. It held worship services since its founding until the World Trade Center’s South Tower crumbled on top of it, destroying the building in its entirely. Only a few artifacts were found at the recovery site, including an icon of St. Dionysios, three wax candles intertwined and a bell used in the church.

Re: Ought there to be a mosque @ Ground Zero?
Alice #351364 08/19/10 12:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,621
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,621
Quote
Pani Rose said, "St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church should be rebuilt at Ground Zero!"


Amen to that. Want to place a bet on the chances it will happen? Maybe we could start a pool . . .

With the subtle and not-so-subtle anti-Christian atmosphere and attitudes in the general culture, my bet says there is a mosque in lower Manhattan long after the memory of St. Nicholas Church fades into history. Sad. frown

Bob

Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4