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Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: StuartK] #351119 08/11/10 12:18 PM
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theophan Offline
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There's a cartoon in our paper this morning. A man appearing before a judge with four women in bridal attire. The comment underneath says

"Your Honor, since you REDEFINED MARRIAGE(sic), is there any reason I can't marry more than one?"

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: theophan] #351120 08/11/10 01:02 PM
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danman916 Offline
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What is odd about this whole thing, is that Judge Walker's ruling that this violated the 14th amendment already has precedent in Baker v Nelson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Nelson

As far as I know, Baker v. Nelson wasn't even cited in the case of Prop. 8, but it should have been as it applies directly here.

Judge Walker should be over-ruled on this alone since th eUS Supreme Court refused to hear Baker v. Nelson because there was no compelling federal issue. This directly contradicts the opinion of Judge Walker.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: theophan] #351121 08/11/10 01:05 PM
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danman916 Offline
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Originally Posted by theophan
There's a cartoon in our paper this morning. A man appearing before a judge with four women in bridal attire. The comment underneath says

"Your Honor, since you REDEFINED MARRIAGE(sic), is there any reason I can't marry more than one?"


Of, course. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
We now have opened the possibility of consanguinuity, plural marriage, marriage to minors, marriage between minors.

The reason that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment does not apply is that everyone is entitled to marry. All people are entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex. Also, the prohibitions of whom one cannot marry is applicable to all equally as well.
This is not the problem of the "separate but equal" issues of the 1960's. Everyone is legally entitled to be married with the same allowances and prohibitions.

The argument that this prohibits the freedom of people with same sex attraction is a false argument for those reasons.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: danman916] #351122 08/11/10 01:45 PM
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Kathleen Elsie Offline
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Originally Posted by danman916
Originally Posted by theophan
There's a cartoon in our paper this morning. A man appearing before a judge with four women in bridal attire. The comment underneath says

"Your Honor, since you REDEFINED MARRIAGE(sic), is there any reason I can't marry more than one?"


Of, course. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
We now have opened the possibility of consanguinuity, plural marriage, marriage to minors, marriage between minors.

The reason that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment does not apply is that everyone is entitled to marry. All people are entitled to marry someone of the opposite sex. Also, the prohibitions of whom one cannot marry is applicable to all equally as well.
This is not the problem of the "separate but equal" issues of the 1960's. Everyone is legally entitled to be married with the same allowances and prohibitions.

The argument that this prohibits the freedom of people with same sex attraction is a false argument for those reasons.


This opens so many issues. IMHO the Constitution and Christian beliefs are the issues here. Look at the violence in other countries that do not have our US Constitution and see the future of the USA on many issues.
Pray for wisdom and that this country turns toward God again.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: Kathleen Elsie] #351144 08/12/10 12:07 AM
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aramis Offline
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The key issue of bias and conflict is that his decision benefits himself directly, because he desires to marry his partner.

Further, as Stuart points out, the Supreme court previously refused to hear such challenges, and further still, the defense of marriage act defines marriage:
Quote
SEC. 3. DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE.

(a) In General.--Chapter 1 of title 1, United States Code, is
amended by adding at the end the following:

``Sec. 7. Definition of `marriage' and `spouse'

``In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the word `marriage' means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife, and the word `spouse' refers only to a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife.''.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=104_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ199.104

His ruling is in DIRECT violation of the DOMA.

He's in need of censure.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: aramis] #351146 08/12/10 02:25 AM
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danman916 Offline
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The section of doma defining marriage as the union between man and woman was declared unconstitutional.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: danman916] #351154 08/12/10 04:07 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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In all seriousness, we could very well see an effort to overturn the prohibition of polygamous marriages - the original prohibition was a blatant attack on the Mormons and their understanding of the requirements of Christian marriage (I obviously do not agree with the Mormons on that understanding, but the American courts are not empowered to decide on doctrinal differences).

Even as it is now, advocates of polygamy (which, again, I do not agree with) enjoy pointing out that "serial plural marriage" is effectively legal in consequence of the divorce laws.

Fr. Serge

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #351159 08/12/10 06:00 PM
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Alice Offline
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The problem with plural marriages (a sanatized label for harems) is that they are sexist!!! LOL! Why shouldn't the one wife have many husbands?!! LOL!!

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: Alice] #351167 08/12/10 08:38 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Dear Aliki,

Presumably the judge in California would agree with you. Since it appears that you were joking, I'm not an admirer of polyandry either!

I did once have a parishioner who enjoyed claiming that he had a harem: one wife, two young daughters.

Anyway, I beg to be excused from exploring such matters myself.

Fr. Serge

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: danman916] #351171 08/12/10 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by danman916
The section of doma defining marriage as the union between man and woman was declared unconstitutional.

"U.S. District Court Judge Joseph Tauro ruled that the Defense of Marriage Act's denial of federal rights and benefits to lawfully married Massachusetts couples "offends" the notion of states' rights as enshrined in the10th amendment to the U.S. Constitution." ( Link )

It is doubtful that President Obama will appeal this. Publicly he says he does not support homosexual "marriage" but his actions to date do not demonstrate any support for traditional marriage.

This ruling on DOMA essentially says that this is a state matter. So under that logic the California voters' decision should have been upheld.


Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #351183 08/13/10 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher


I did once have a parishioner who enjoyed claiming that he had a harem: one wife, two young daughters.


My wife used to make the same reference: 1 wife, 4 daughters (and one neutered male cat, and a lesbian cat).

Anyway, a couple of comments as a lawyer:

* The supreme court not takeing a case means nothing, zilch.
* Oddly, the judge only has a conflict if he's wrong, not right.
* He isn't bound by any ruling outside the ninth circuit other than the UCSC.

Those said, he's quite wrong on the law. He tossed out roughly 700 years of law on the nature of marriage to start leaping to conclusions about its nature.

hawk, esq.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: dochawk] #351192 08/13/10 09:11 PM
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Doc, it's a clear conflict to rule a case which benefits oneself. His expressed desire to marry his partner is a clear indication of self-benefit. If he were instead a celibate single gay man, it would be less clear, but he's long-term partnered...

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: aramis] #351201 08/14/10 07:26 PM
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theophan Offline
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Think of the possibilities for inheritance.

I "marry" my daughter and she stays married to her husband. Ditto my wife and our son. How about we both marry both of our children?

When either or both os us dies, PA law says there is no estate and no estate tax between spouses. It all passes tax free and without probate.

Don't have to consummate (gag!!) just get it on paper like people who try to circumvent the law on immigration.

Re: Judge Who Overturned "Prop 8" Lives the "Gay Lifestyle" [Re: aramis] #351205 08/14/10 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by aramis
Doc, it's a clear conflict to rule a case which benefits oneself. His expressed desire to marry his partner is a clear indication of self-benefit. If he were instead a celibate single gay man, it would be less clear, but he's long-term partnered...


That's kind of murky in this case, which is why it matters whether or not he's right. We wouldn't require every black, Catholic, and Jewish judge to recuse themselves from every cross burning on a lawn, even though though these are the three groups that would benefit the most. *IF* he were right, the same logic would apply.


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