Annually, I cringe when I post this ... but, Fr Roberson has posted the 2010 AP Stats

Many years,

Neil

What is it that makes you cringe, I wonder?

What do all these numbers mean?

Luvr, your question is the answer to LC's question. We will soon begin the endless rounds of analysis as to what these numbers mean and that is why I cringe.

In short, they are the stats, for each of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches, by jurisdiction, as to numbers of faithful, clergy, etc - showing growth or decline since the prior year, as reported to and published in the Vatican Yearbook.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you. So that I'll understand what people are talking about in reference to these numbers, what do "Bish Par SecPr RelPr MRel FRel PD Sm" mean? I'm guessing Bish = Bishop and Par = Parishes. Does the 2 under Bish mean we have had two Bishops since the beginning of this Eparchy? (I doubt it means we currently have two bishops lol)I can imagine also that MRel = Monastic Religious. Does that number mean we have 16 Monastic communities or 16 monastics? I'm quite curious about these numbers. And I am of course referring to the Melkite Greek Catholic Church Eparchy of Newton numbers. I'm kind of sad though that we had lost just over 2000 parishioners since it's height in '05.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

As I'm looking over these numbers, I'm very curious about an anomaly. Why are the Melkite Greek Catholics 3 million smaller than the Ukranian Greek Catholics when 20 years ago there were 20k more Melkites than than Ukrainians?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

I don't know how accurate the membership statistics are. I think some Churches count their members, while others just estimate the numbers.

Therefore, the most interesting figures are the ones which are most likely to be accurate: number of parishes, clergy, religious, seminarians, etc.

In particular, the number of ordinations and the number of baptisms are interesting and can say a lot about the way a particular Church is heading, but Father Roberson leaves out these figures.

It seems to me that if an Eastern Church has just erected an exarchate or eparchy and shifted the numbers toward the newly formed jurisdiction, it would take away from the original eparchy, but if the new one is not added yet, it would look like a significant drop in numbers. This seems to be the case in at least a few eparchies.

Manuel,

The abbreviations are explained at the bottom of each page, but they are:

Bish=Bishops
Par=Parishes
SecPr=Secular Priests (Eparchial or Patriarchal Clergy, as the case may be)
RelPr=Religious Priests (those of the monastic orders or religious orders, depending on the Church in question)
MRel=Male Religious (monks who are not hieromonks, religious brothers - rare in most of the Churches)
FRel=Female Religious (nuns or sisters)
PD=Permanent Deacons
Sem=Seminarians

With regard to the specifics of the Eparchy of Newton:

* The 2 Bishops is incorrect. The number should reflect the number of bishops resident in the eparchy (unless the definition has changed sometime recently) and 3 would be the correct number - Archbishop Cyril (Eparch), Bishop John (Eparch Emeritus), and Bishop Nicholas (Auxiliary Emeritus).

* The 16 Male Religious is a number that I can't fathom. Monks in the Eparchy who are not hieromonks are very few in number. I can't perceive of any other than at St Basil's in Methuen (where I believe there may be 1 or 2 presently) and the community in PA (which would have to have grown markedly in recent times to account for such a figure). I don't believe that there have been any religious brothers in the Eparchy since Brother Domenic, of blessed memory, was ordained to the presbyterate many years ago. Perhaps Father Economos Roman, Father Archimandrite Andre, or Deacon Ed might have a thought on where this number came from.

* The 35 parishes is, I think, low by a few, though without doing a physical count and separating parishes from missions, I won't swear to it.

The other numbers are certainly in the ballpark. Female religious and seminarians are both accurate, unless there has been a recent change.

As regards the drop from 2005 to now, note that the 2005 figure represented an almost equal spike from the last prior year cited (2000). (In actuality, 29K was the reported number in 2004 and 2005, with it dropping back to 27K in 2006.) I suspect that the 29K was the result of an inaccurate counting or reporting and that the 26K-27K figure that has otherwise been consistent through the decade is the more accurate number.

Many years,

Neil

Manuel,

20 years ago, the UGCC and several other of the Churches in the East European nations were only just emerging from the yoke of communism and having been suppressed for many, many decades, Their hierarchies and jurisdictions were in no way able to do much more than estimate their numbers.

Many years,

Neil

The number of male religious (monastics) in the Annuario Pontificio includes the number of religious priests (hieromonks).

Therefore, you have to subtract the number of religious priests from the number of male religious to get the number of male religious who are not priests.

For the Eparchy of Newton, 14 religious priests subtracted from 16 male religious gives 2 non-ordained male religious, probably novices or juniors at St. Basil's as you mention.

Perhaps Father Roberson has left out retired auxiliary Bishops? If you use the Annuario Pontificio and want a list of retired auxiliary Bishops, you have to look through some 200 pages of titular Sees to find them, because they are not listed under the dioceses or eparchies where they used to serve.

LC,

I have to admit not looking directly at a copy of AP for a long time. Although not listed under the jurisdictions (which I seem to remember was always the case), are they not counted in the enumeration tables? If not, I'd not expect Father to add them, since he just extracts data cells and prints them, not creating the numbers, only the formatting.

Many years,

Neil

LC,

Thanks for the clarification on that - don't think I ever noticed or realized that they (religious priests) were being double-counted.

Many years,

Neil

As you know, the Annuario Pontificio has entries on all the dioceses/eparchies in the world in alphabetical order, from Aachen to Zrenjanin. Each entry contains biographical data on the diocesan/eparchial Bishop, the coadjutor Bishop (if any) and any Bishops emeriti.

Each entry also lists the names and titular Sees of any active auxiliary Bishops. However, to learn more about an auxiliary Bishop, you have to look him up in the section on titular Sees further back in the book. And retired auxiliary Bishops are only found in the section on titular Sees.

For example, you find the Eparchy of Newton on page 504 of the 2010 edition. Here you find the biographical data of Archbishop Cyrille Salim (Bustros) as the reigning Hierarch, and of Bishop John Adel (Elya) as the Bishop emeritus.

To find Bishop Nicholas James (Samra), you have to turn to page 902 and the entry on the titular See of Gerasa, where you will learn that he is Auxiliary emeritus of Newton. But the entry on the Eparchy of Newton itself gives you no clue that he exists, since he is retired.

I guess we Russians in America would have been at the bottom of the last page had we been included...
What is the group without hierarchy in France that has grown so much?

Am I reading the same stats as everyone else? Interesting, and important, as the many finer points that have been discussed in this thread may be (and suspect as some of the numbers may well be), the appalling declines in the numbers of faithful in the US and Canada for some of the Churches (particularly the Ruthenian and Ukrainian) are, or ought to be, a cause of serious concern. Are our Churches in this hemisphere on a path to extinction? Ought we not be asking ourselves what is causing this? where are the missing multitudes going?

more correctly, Tim, in the US and Canada, ALL organized hierarchical religions seem to be in decline.

Forgive an obvious question, are any of the faithful having children and if so at what age and how many? Front page of local paper today "The U.S. birth rate has fallen to its lowest level in at least a century" and we weren't at replacement before this. It's rare to see a family of more than two (I don't think Orthodox are excluded on this) and that isn't even "replacement level" at just the most crass level.

In many cases a generation was skipped altogether. Up until the 1960s many women began to reproduce in their very early 20s. Their offspring then reproduced in their early 20s so when my 40 year old mom had me she was the age of many of my peers grandmothers. Among those of my generation and later who waited until late 30s to have a child their children are coming effectively after a generation skipped.

Lest you think this is totally off topic it is not.

The U.S. TFR is just about 2.0 today. With immigration, we are slightly above replacement. This is pretty much the first time TFR has fallen below 2.1 in the United States.

But you are wrong about the age at which women in this country used to give birth. In fact, throughout our history, most women married for the first time at 22-24, while most men married for the first time at ages 24-26. From 1945 until the middle 1960s, women married at 18-20, while men married at 20-22, significantly lower than the historical norm.

There are several reasons for this. First of all, men usually did not marry until they could support a family, which meant they had to have time to get a job and build up savings. As men typically want to marry women a couple of years younger than them, this explains the ages at which men and women married for most of U.S. history, from the colonial period through the Second World War.

What happened between 1945 and 1965? Coming out of World War II with the only intact industrial economy, the U.S. enjoyed unprecedented prosperity that featured a plethora of semi-skilled and high paying jobs that could be filled by men right out of high school. Most of them were also unionized, so they had stability and job security. By the time they were 22, they had enough money in the bank to buy a car and a house, and support a wife--a wife a couple of years younger than them.

After 1965, things began to return to normal, as the rest of the world's economies recovered and the U.S. had to become economically competitive again. The semi-skilled, high-paying jobs disappeared, the high paying jobs required more training (hence time to learn), and the average age at which men married moved back towards its historical average of 26--where it stands today.

The main difference between now and the past is the age at which women marry for the first time, which is now also around 26. Women had always participated in the workplace (except for the 1950s), but now women are filling jobs which require as much training and education as those filled by men. When women finally get around to marrying, they are having trouble finding men in the desirable demographic who want to marry them--men are still looking for women in their early 20s.

Women haven't done themselves any favors by buying into the feminist theory of sexual liberation (a phenomenon that began before the Pill, as I have written for First Things, but which the Pill accelerated). By frittering away their time in casual dalliances, women reduce their perceived value as stable life partners by the men who drift in and out of their lives--and they never learned about living in a long-term relationship, which explains why they ditch at the first opportunity when the going gets rough.

Men, for their part, simply act like pigs. Or, to mix metaphors, why buy the cow when the milk is free? If women make themselves available sexually outside of marriage, men will take advantage of them. And time is much kinder to men in that regard than it is to women: men get older, but they also can become more attractive to younger women. Older women seldom become more attractive to younger men, and men their own age are busy chasing after available younger women.

Very interesting, Stuart, but now we really are off topic!

As I said before, the number of baptisms for each eparchy last year is interesting, but Father Roberson has left out those numbers. Especially interesting is the number of baptisms per 1,000 members. Here are the figures for the Greek Catholic eparchies in the United States:

Eparchy Baptisms per 1,000 members
Newton 13.4
Parma 9.2
Passaic 9.6
Philadelphia 8.8
Pittsburgh 3.0
Saint George in Canton 4.6
Saint Josaphat in Parma 8.6
Saint Nicholas of Chicago 9.1
Stamford 10.1
Van Nuys 28.7

It is interesting to compare these figures with baptisms per 1,000 members in some Latin dioceses in the United States:

Diocese Baptisms per 1,000 members
Boston 10.9
Chicago 16.4
Cincinnati 14.8
Hartford 10.4
Newark 11.0
Philadelphia 10.4
Phoenix 16.9
Pittsburgh 7.9

Greek Catholic eparchies generally have a lower number of baptisms per 1,000 members than Latin dioceses. However, some trends may be regional. For example, both the Latins and the Greek Catholics of Pittsburgh have lower-than-average numbers of baptisms. Similarly, Phoenix and Van Nuys have higher-than-average numbers of baptisms. Newton, which is a nation-wide eparchy, has more baptisms per 1,000 members than the northeastern Latin dioceses.

I think there are two important factors here:

1. The Greek Catholic Churches in the United States have historically been centered in the northeast of the country, especially in Pennsylvania. But much of the population growth is now taking place in the south and the west.

2. The Greek Catholic Churches in the United States are very small and therefore may not have the resources to keep in touch with members as they move to other parts of the country. Also, younger generations may not always see the value of an ethnically-based religious affiliation.

Personally, as a complete outsider, I think the Greek Catholic Churches in the United States should follow the example of the Orthodox Church in America. There should be a single Greek Catholic Church in America with its own Major Archbishop and mostly geographically-based eparchies (thought there might be exceptions in special cases, and local parishes could still be ethnically based). This would make the Greek Catholic Church a bit more visible in the nation's religious landscape, and the boundaries of the new eparchies might be drawn to reflect the shifting demographics of the United States. Importantly, the Synod of Bishops of a major archiepiscopal Church sui iuris would have much more freedom to serve the needs of Greek Catholics in the United States without having to refer matters to Rome, Damascus or Kyiv all the time.

After all, why should Greek Catholic reproduce the divisions of their Orthodox Sister Churches?

LC,

A request - before we get embroiled in the 'single jurisdiction' brouhaha (we've been there before and it's never pretty) - which we undoubtedly will.

Since you've apparently got the AP at hand, can you please give us some baptismal figures for the Oriental jurisdictions in the US, as well as those of the Maronites and Chaldeans?

Many years,

Neil (.oO and someone wondered why I cringed when opening this thread :p)

Newton (Melkite) 26,704 members 358 baptisms (13.4 per 1,000 members)
Our Lady of Deliverance of Newark (Syriac) 13,800 members 112 baptisms (8.1 per 1,000 members) NB! figures for 2007
Our Lady of Lebanon of Los Angeles (Maronite) 44,919 members 417 baptisms (9.3 per 1,000 members)
Our Lady of Nareg in New York (Armenian) 36,000 members 242 baptisms (6.7 per 1,000 members)
Parma (Byzantine) 8,791 members 81 baptisms (9.2 per 1,000 members)
Passaic (Byzantine) 17,620 members 169 baptisms (9.6 per 1,000 members)
Philadelphia (Ukrainian) 22,500 members 199 baptisms (8.8 per 1,000 members)
Pittsburgh (Byzantine) 58,997 members 179 baptisms (3.0 per 1,000 members)
Saint George in Canton (Romanian) 5,900 members 27 baptisms (4.6 per 1,000 members)
Saint Josaphat in Parma (Ukrainian) 10,685 members 92 baptisms (8.6 per 1,000 members)
Saint Maron of Brooklyn (Maronite) 33,000 members 446 baptisms (13.5 per 1,000 members)
Saint Nicholas of Chicago (Ukrainian) 10,000 members 91 baptisms (9.1 per 1,000 members)
Saint Peter the Apostle of San Diego (Chaldean) 45,336 members 315 baptisms (6.9 per 1,000 members)
Saint Thomas the Apostle of Chicago (Syro-Malabar) 85,000 members 296 baptisms (3.5 per 1,000 members)
Saint Thomas the Apostle of Detroit (Chaldean) 102,800 members 933 baptisms (9.1 per 1,000 members)
Stamford (Ukrainian) 16,750 members 169 baptisms (10.1 per 1,000 members)
Van Nuys (Byzantine) 2,613 members 75 baptisms (28.7 per 1,000 members)

Thank you, my friend!

So, overall:

Melkites 13.4
Maronites 11.1
Ukrainians 9.2
Chaldeans 8.4
Syriacs 8.1
Armenians 6.7
Ruthenians 5.7
Romanians 4.6
Malabarese 3.5

Interesting. The 4 groups with the highest numbers (Melkites, Maronites, Ukrainians, Chaldeans) are all experiencing immigration, as is the lowest (Malabarese). I think the low rate among the Malabarese reflects that a lot of its immigrants are younger, unmarried, professionals, whereas the immigrants from the Middle East (Melkites, Maronites, Chaldeans) include many more family units. Not sure what the Ukrainian immigrant population looks like.

Many years,

Neil

The statistics presume that the eparchial membership figures are accurate. I suspect those for the Ruthenian eparchies overstate membership by at least a factor of two, meaning that the baptismal rates are probably twice as high. On the other hand, many of the baptisms could involve people who are only nominal members of the Ruthenian Church who habitually attend Latin parishes, but who, by virtue of canon law, have to take their children to a Ruthenian parish for baptism--after which, they are never seen again. As always, the question of statistics remains extremely squirrelly.

Beyond that, Latin Catholic makes an excellent point: the Greek Catholic heartland is in demographic decline generally. Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts--all are losing population, some at a staggering rate. Most of the people who leave these states are younger, and looking for opportunity and an attractive place to raise a family. The general direction of migration is as Latin Catholic noted, from the rust belt to the south and southwest. The parishes in the original ethnic settlement are increasingly elderly and generally shrinking, while the new communities established elsewhere tend to be much younger, and, if not growing, at least holding their own. Also, because the original ethnic groups tend to be thinner on the ground there, these parishes also take a more active role in evangelization, a case of make converts or perish.

That said, it would be a major error to reject the ethnic patrimony outright. It is, in fact, one of the things that attracts outsiders (e.g., me and my entire family--not a Slav among us) and also provides a sense of continuity and solidarity that is missing from the new, industrial-strength consolidated Latin super-parishes. A lot of people find the small size of Eastern parishes refreshing, allowing for a real sense of family and community at odds with the anonymity that tends to prevail in many Latin parishes.

Latin Catholic is also wrong if he thinks the OCA lacks an ethnic identity. It was founded as the Russian Orthodox North American Mission, and it remains at heart a Church with its roots in Russia. That the backbone of its membership is descended from the Ukrainian and Rusyn Greek Catholics who departed the Catholic communion over the married priest issue is irrelevant: the OCA sought a corporate identity, and that identity was Russian. The liturgy of the OCA is Russian, and the spiritual outlook is Russian. The ethnic dioceses of the OCA tend to be small and self-contained, and generally isolated from the mainstream of that Church.

On the other hand, Latin Catholic makes a good point: the Greek Catholic community is too defuse and fissiparous to justify the multiplicity of jurisdiction present here. But I don't see the emergence of a single Greek Catholic Church of the United States, simply because there is no agreement among the Greek Catholics as to what they ought to be. Some really do think of themselves as "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine rite", while others consider themselves "Orthodox Christians in Communion with Rome". I would say that the bulk of the Ruthenians, consciously or not, see themselves as the former, while the bulk of the Melkites, following the lead of their synod, perceive themselves as the latter, As for the Ukrainians, they are all over the map, and practically impossible to characterize. Unity among the Greek Catholics is impossible until such time as they reach consensus on their own identity and mission.

Hello,

Christ is Risen !!! (Is it ok to say that greeting outside of the season? It is my favorite greeting ever since my first Eastern Pascha this year.)

I was actually just having this discussion about the young Greek Catholics in this country with the Deaconess I know from my parish. Since the Greek Catholic parishes are small next to the Roman Catholic parishes AND (I think this is also big) there are MANY activities for the youth and young adults at Latin parishes, this is where the young Greek Catholics will go. Especially as they seek a spouse. A connected issue might be, depending on how well they young ones are taught their faith, they may not be able to explain the uniqueness of the Greek Catholics and if they come from the Orthodox in union with Rome mentality, they may think something is wrong as they come across Roman Catholics and they are not ready to explain. And not being ready, they may think that they should start going to Roman Masses and etc. Too find a good Greek Catholic spouse, I think, is important to be united in spirit and understanding on faith and the Church. Which can be difficult.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Out of season, say "Glory to Jesus Christ", to which the response is "Glory forever"!

In Nativity (Christmas) season, say, "Christ is born!" and respond, "Glorify Him!"

For Theophany, it's "Christ is baptized!" and "In the Jordan".

The real reasons so many Greek Catholics end up in Roman parishes are (a) convenience (five Masses on Sunday, plus one on Saturday evening, plus the presence of many more parishes, some much closer); and (b) having been brought up with the attitude "Catholic is Catholic". For that reason, whenever a Greek Catholic parish is not available, I will go to an Orthodox parish instead, as do my wife and children.

As Stuart points out, there are many possible sources of error when one tries to interpret statistics. If, for example, there are very few baptisms compared to the number of members, there are at least four different explanations that I can think of:

a. That the number of members is wrong.
b. That the members are elderly.
c. That the members are young and single.
d. That the members are leaving.

In any given case, one or more of these explanations may be valid.

Baptisms > Funerals = Good
Funerals < Baptisms = Bad.

Of particular interest, and not captured in the data is the number of adult baptisms. When I attended a Ruthenian parish, these were exceedingly rare. I think my family and I accounted for 80% of these over a ten year period. On the other hand, at the Melkite parish I now attend, there are at least half a dozen or so adult baptisms each year, which, for a parish of about 200 people, is quite remarkable. In addition, our young families are a fecund lot, and we celebrate several baptisms each month--I would estimate more than thirty in a year. But I would attribute a lot of this to the dynamism of the pastor and that it is, in many respects, a convert parish.

Stuart points out the need to keep the ethnic patrimony, and I agree with him. I am also aware of the Slavonic character and origins of the OCA. Father Alexander Schmemann discusses the tension between "National Pluralism and Canonical Unity" in his 1964 essay on "The Canonical Problem" of Orthodoxy in America. I think what he says is still valid for Orthodoxy in America, and some of it may be relevant to Eastern Catholicism as well.

Schmemann suggests that the parish can represent the ethnic tradition, while the diocese (eparchy) should ensure the canonical unity of the Church in one state or region. In other words, the parish may be ethnic, but the diocese (eparchy) should be multiethnic. Of course, the Orthodox in America have not been able to achieve this yet, and perhaps it is too much to ask the Greek Catholics to do so before the Orthodox. But I do think Schmemann's essay is worth reading and that it may point to the way forward.

Stuart,

The dynamism of the Melkite Church is interesting. It suggests that the Melkites probably have a lot to contribute to Eastern Catholicism in America

Remember: there are lies, damned lies, statistics, and church statistics.

Fr. Serge

Indeed, Father

It has that potential. But, at one time, so did the Ruthenian Church.

Today, we had two, possibly three older children baptized. I have no idea why they had not been baptized previously, but they had a large family contingent with them.

In the next couple of weeks, I anticipate three or four infant baptisms--it was a really cold winter with lots of snow. The parish keeps getting younger, which is a Good Thing.

Dear Stuart,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As I understand it, we go to the same parish. I unfortunately missed the baptism since I had to pick up my daughter for DL today from her mother. But something else I have noticed is that we have just as many deaths and memorial services after DL as we do baptisms. I think what helps (and I don't know what water they're drinking lol) are when there are twins that are getting baptized.

OT: I pray for the day that my daughter can get baptized. It's complicated to just put the whole story on here, just if you guys can keep her in prayer and her pagan mother (and by pagan I do not mean this vague cultural pagan that most people mean. I mean Isis goddess of Egypt worshiping pagan.)

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Many of these memorial services are actually for the anniversaries of the repose of the departed. Today, we had a service for the 40th day memorial--but we commemorate the departed many, many times, so it seems like there are more deaths than there really are.

Look me up--I usually stand on the left side near the aisle, close to the front.

Stuart,

I'm the really tall guy with a tall beautiful 4 year old girl (though she probably looks older cuz of her size) I'm normal on the left side as well sitting in the second row with the deacon's family. I stand out like a sore thumb. I'm 6'6".I would hate to start asking ppl if they are you and they look at me like I'm crazy lol. If you can, I would appreciate if you can introduce yourself o me since it'll be easier for you to spot me ;-) . BTW, are you going to the Middle Eastern Food Festival?

hmmmmmm a bit off topic I believe you and I are going. I'm pm you lol

Manuel,

I'd been curious as to which parish you attended, but didn't want to pry. Based on some of your comments, I made an educated guess - and find I was correct . That's a particularly vibrant parish and the clergy there are very committed.

Prayers for your hopes to have your tall 4 year old baptized (from a Dad of all tall kids - except the 5'8" one, who thinks herself a shrimp )

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

If you ever have a question, do not worry about asking, just be sure you want to know ;-) lol. I'm too good at going OT but since you brought up the priests, I asked Fr. Joseph yesterday about the things I have asked on here and he gave a great "eastern" answer . . . which was no straight answer at all lol.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Father Joe is an accomplished master at speaking byzantine .

Stuart,

I don't want to take this off-topic,a gain, but do you ahve a source for this? Just curious, as these numbers would seem to probably only cover America post 1900, when America was greatly moving away from an agricultural society to an industrial one. I would think that this had a lot to do with the age of marriage and having children.

Dear Danman,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I have read/heard that if it weren't for all the immigrants (legal or otherwise) America would be in the same dismal decline that Europe is in. In 50 years I had heard from a report on tv, I'll try to find a link, countries like Germany will be Muslim nations because the native Germans are dieing more than giving birth. They cannot replenish themselves while the Muslim immigrants are having a plethora of kids. Like us good Catholics shiould ;-)

Not quite that bad. Native-born fertility is about 1.8, immigrant fertility is about 2.1. and surplus immigration accounts for the remaining growth.

Muslim fertility rates in the West tend to come down very close to European norms by the second generation. In many Muslim countries, fertility rates have been coming down for years. In Iran, of all places, a government sponsored contraceptive program reduced the TFR from 4.1 to 1.7 in just a decade (assuming you can believe Iranian government figures).

Did you mean:
Baptisms > Funerals = Good
Funerals > Baptisms = Bad.

Oops.

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,

Some interesting notes as to these results. First, we still do not have an accurate number for the Syro-Malankarese Community in North America. I am willing to bet that its numbers equal that of the Syro-Malabar. If that is true then our numbers (we Eastern Catholics) are indeed impressive.

Also, within the Antiochene-Edessan Churches these numbers show that nearly all of us need to have more eparchs (excepting the Syriacs); and the the Syro-Malankarese need to get off their duffs and get a few appointed to North Ameriac.

We Maronites could have one to two new eparchs, and with two Chathedrals available (Detroit and Los Angeles) we could easily establish such.

The Chaldeans with the vantastic growth could easily establish a new eparchy (probably in the New York/New Jersey area) to help grow their Church here in North America; or they could be very radical and establish a Canadian exarchate.

As for the the Syro-Malabar and Malankarese I just want to scream. They are worse than we Maronites when it comes to waiting for orders from the Colonial office. If they got their acts together, the grow of Eastern Catholicism in North America would see a new renaissance.

Now to Churches that should work to establish themselves here better, the primary candidate is the Ethiopian Ge'ez Church. If they would send, or have trained American priests in their Divine Liturgy they would have an Eparchy in a year.

From what I understand from unoffical sources, if a community has five parishes that are stable for a number of years (between 5 and 10), then an exarchate will be established for it. An exception to this is the Russian and Bylorussian Catholic Churches which Rome will not permit to have exarchs or eparchs for fear of offending Moscow. As many of you know, I say Rome should tell Moscow to stick it since this is an internal Catholic matter, but they won't and faithful Byzantine Russian and Bylorussian Catholics will be made to pay the price.

Now a good thing that coulc come about if some of our sister communities would organize is that we Eastern Catholics would be standing on our own two feet. If the Ethiopian Ge'ez Church does organize, then they could help the two Coptic Catholic parishes here in North America, and the Eritrean Ge'ez Community would also be able to organize. What I see happening for that Holy Tradition is that a Ethiopian Ge'ez eparch would be appointed. He would then have a person that ministered to the Eritrean Community and one to serve the Coptic.

Well I hope our numbers here in North America keep going up, and not from immigration but from evangelization.

Fush BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

Shawn, my brother,

I absolutely agree with you as regards the Ethiopian Church - particularly its Eritrean faithful, whom I believe are significantly more numeous in the US than the Ethiopians themselves. The number of Eritrean Catholic communities in the US which are either unserved or underserved is ridiculous and it's almost a certainty that many of those will be lost to either the Latin Church or to the Eritrean Tewahedo Church in just a few years if nothing is done for them. Unless I've missed something, it's now been more than a couple of years since the last US visitation by any of the Ethiopian/Eritrean hierarchs. A few Latin dioceses have been very supportive of these faithful, but others have merely lumped them into the loose oversight of their Black or African ministry, where everyone else is Latin.

The prospects for the Copts to be served by the Ethiopians or Eritreans is, however, I think doubtful. While the two Churches both derive from the Alexandrian Rite, the differences in liturgical praxis are enough that I don't think you'd find the Copts all that amenable to the idea. The Copts have, however, asked for a third parish - in Chicago - without success, raising the question most recently on the occasion of their Patriarch's last US visitation. The 2 US parishes that they have - LA and NY - are vastly different, with the former being rather well-established and the latter pretty much having to fend for itself from what I've been able to gather. Other than Chicago, I don't know where there are sizeable communities; although there is a large Egyptian community in Eastern MA and southern NH, for instance, it is principally Coptic Orthodox. I occasionally hear of individual Copts worshipping with Byzantine communities (most often with Melkites, despite differences in Arabic dialect).

Next year's AP data should include some numbers for the Malankara, given that the exarchate is now in place, albeit it will be a year or two until those demonstrate enough consistency to be relied on (to the extent that church census data can ever be relied on).

The Chaldean eparchy in San Diego and the one in Michigan are a study in contrasts, with the latter in sore need of an injection of the vibrancy that characterizes the other.

One thing to keep in mind vis-a-vis the Oriental Churches and the Chaldean Church is that all of those are still, at this point in time and likely for some decades to come, much more ethnic than the majority of the Byzantine Rite Churches or the Maronites. The Byzantines (most - the Romanians being the notable exception) and Maronites attract significantly more Westerners into their congregations than do the Orientals or Chaldeans. In that regard, those Churches look a lot like our Churches did a century ago; marriages outside the community are still the exception, English is the minority usage insofar as liturgical language, etc.

As to the Russians, nothing will change there anytime soon, and I doubt that you'll ever see another Byelorusian parish erected in the US. The faithful were pretty much concentrated geographically and, at this point, have been effectively dispersed - being subsumed into other Byzantine Churches, into the Latin Church, or into their Orthodox counterpart. The Byelorusian GC Church in the US, like that of the Croats, is reduced to a footnote in the memory of folks here who decry the loss of these temples.

Many years,

Neil

Shlomo Neil,




You are correct. In 1998 I worked with Fr. Steven of Our Lady of Fatima Russian Catholic Church to have priests of the Ethiopian College in Rome to visit. The Archbishop of San Francisco was kind enough to finance their trip here.



What I would like to see is for African-American priests to be trained in the Ge'ez Rites and have them become biritual.



This gives the Coptic Catholic Community a better chance than I had thought. With LA and NY you can also add Toronto (Holy Family Coptic Catholic Church) and Montreal as established communities; therefore an exarchate for North America can be established.



Can you attach information about this exarchate for me? From what I can see it is suppose to be based out of Hyde Park in New York. If it is, that is great because it can take advantage of CNEWA and other Eastern Catholic Churches in the area.



Agreed, and with a free floting eparch it gives this Church a chance to bring good qualities forward in a new eparchy.



Agreed.



The Russians now have enough to appoint an eparch. They should and deal with the fallout from the Vatican. It is always easier to ask for foregiveness than permission.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I am curious, since it seems that there are few Coptic Catholic parishes. I'm not sure if you have ever asked, but if a Coptic Catholic finds himself where there is a Coptic Orthodox parish and a Roman Catholic parish, but no Coptic Catholic parish, what has been the pastoral advice for Coptic Catholics in that situation?

I ask because of the mixed responses I've seen on here for Byzantine Catholics.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Shlomo Manuel,

Well what I do is go to the Orthodox parish since its Liturgy is simular to mine. My eparch has stated that he wants us to understand our Liturgy since we should have an understanding of our Faith. What one can do is go to Divine Liturgy on Sunday to the Orthodox Church, and attend the Roman Church for all other functions.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Dear Yuhannon,

Thank you for your reply. Also, what language are you typing when greeting and parting?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Shlomo (Peace in Syriac Aramaic) Manuel,

Syriac is the Liturgical Language of my Church.

Fush BaShlomo (Stay in Peace),
Yuhannon

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Shalom (Peace Hebrew)
Salam (Peace Arabic)

Is it a Semitic language?

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

Both Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages.

Fr. Serge

Shawn,

I hate to be negatve, but ...

I think that's a very unlikely happening. The logistics alone argue against it. Training in the Rite and learning the liturgical language (keep in mind that almost all the faithful are relatively recent - 10 to 12 years - emigrants and look for their worship to be in either Ge'ez or Tigrinya, the former now solely a liturgical tongue) are daunting prospects and not readily undertaken in the states.

Additionally, the numbers of African-American clergy in the US don't readily lend themselves to being stretched all that far. As to the African-born clergy in the US, I believe that the vast majority are specifically ministering to the clusters of their own countrymen in the various Latin dioceses where the effort at outreach to these emigrants has been undertaken. I suspect that few Latin dioceses would be willing to risk losing those clergy back to their home dioceses because of unhappiness over being asked to adopt - even on a bi-ritual basis - the praxis of another Church su iuris.

Although lumping the Ethiopians and Eritreans into existing Latin Rite Black ministries smacks of the early 20th century response to the EC Slavs - 'you can worship with the Polish, you're all Slavs', I'm afraid that it's the best that's going to happen until the Metropolia in Addis Ababa sends more clergy this way (which it may well not be in a position to do, financially) or te hosting Latin jurisdictions here see the need as something that should cause them to offer footing the cost for clergy to come. I'm not sure that the numbers in any one place are such that they yet feel forced to do that. Boston has one, locally trained immigrant priest - bi-ritual Latin (which isn't new to the Ethiopians, where most clergy are, because of the unusual juridictional set-up there). I don't know that any of the other Latins have done that as yet, as it's been a couple years now since I researched the situation in the course of working on the directory.



See this thread. The Long Island locale is not new to the Malankara. It's been their administrative centre since they first had an Apostolic Visitator appointed several years back. In truth, as regards other EC/OC Churches, I suspect you'll mainly see interaction w/ the Malabarese; despite the ritual differences between the two, the cultural links have meant some cross-over in attendance in those areas where only one of the two is situated.



True enough (your final observation, that is), but there is no synodal body to act and I would seriously doubt that the hierarchs involved with the 4 parishes (the bishops of 4 Latin jurisdictions and the eparchs of 2 Byzantine ones, who afford them episcopal visitation and spiritual omophorion) are likely to tell the presbyters to go ahead and try. Such goings on create situations like that currently afoot in the Latin diocese of Cleveland. The existing Russian parishes in the US, albeit deprived of their own hierarch, are decently situated in supportive environments and likely better off for such than were they to strike off on their own right now.

Many years,

Neil

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Thank you Father. I knew that. I obviously was not clear in my question though. I meant if Syriac Aramaic was semitic. I was using the Hebrew and Arabic as comparisons on how similar the greeting was.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

An observation unrelated to the other matters raised.

Data for the Albanian Byzantine Church sui iuris lists its sole juridiction - the Apostolic Administration of Southern Albania (Albania Meridionale). The Apostolic Administration is described as having 9 parishes; it does, but only 1 of those is Byzantine - Shenjtë Virgjër Meri Shqip Grek-Katolik in Elbasan.

The other 8 are Latin parishes canonically subject to the Apostolic Administration.

Many years,

Neil

Syriac is Semitic, the alphabet is almost exactly the same as Hebrew, pronouncation is slightly different.

Clarification: The alphabet sounds like Hebrew.. looks different

Regarding Baptisms in the Malankara jurisdiction: I've personally witnessed over 10 in one parish alone in one year.

Regarding the Malabar jurisdiction: I suspect the numbers are skewed because of bad recording, Latin baptisms, and unreported Knanaya numbers (which fall under Malabar, but are normally administered with their own vicar general or archpriest)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Thank you.

Kyrie eleison,

Manuel

There is just one Ge'ez Catholic mission in the Washington area (in the District), but there seem to be several Ethiopian Orthodox parishes (one is taking over Holy Cross Romanian Orthodox Church in Baileys Crossroads (Holy Cross is moving to Potomac, I think). The entire Northern Virginia area is crawling with Ethiopian, Eritrean and Somali immigrants, but their Christian communities do not seem well served with houses of worship at this time.

In my parish, we have had 11 funerals in the past three years. We have only had 6 baptisms for 5 families. Out of the 5 families, only 2 families are active members; the other families live well outside a reasonable driving distance. Just this year alone, we have had 2 funerals and lost 2 members to the Orthodox Church. We have another family moving away in a few months. When they move, we will lose half of our children aged 6 and under. It's very sad.

There is an Ethiopian Catholic mission in London - and there are plenty of people in Dublin. I keep trying to convince the RC archdiocese here to bring in the Ethiopian priest from London now and then, but the archdiocese seems quite uninterested.

Fr. Serge

Shlomo Abun Sergius,

Have you thought about having the Ethiopian College in Rome send a priest. From what I understand the College does not need the Archbishop's permission. That is kind of what I did in 1998.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Shlomo Michael_Thoma,

Here is a fuller explaination:

There are three major variants of the Syriac alphabet. The oldest and classical form of the alphabet is Esṭrangelā (ܐܣܛܪܢܓܠܐ; the name is thought to derive from the Greek adjective στρογγύλη (strongylē, 'rounded'),[1] though it has also been suggested to derive from ܣܪܛܐ ܐܘܢܓܠܝܐ (serṭā ’ewangēlāyā, 'gospel character')[2]). Although Estrangelā is no longer used as the main script for writing Syriac, it has received some revival since the tenth century. It is often used in scholarly publications (for instance, the Leiden University version of the Peshitta), in titles and inscriptions. In some older manuscripts and inscriptions it is possible for any letter to join to the left, and older Aramaic letter forms (especially of Ḥeth and the lunate Mem) are found.

The West Syriac dialect is usually written in the Serṭā (ܣܪܛܐ, 'line') form of the alphabet, also known as the Pšīṭā (ܦܫܝܛܐ, 'simple'), 'Maronite', or the 'Jacobite' script (although the term Jacobite is considered derogatory). Most of the letters are clearly derived from Estrangelā, but are simplified, flowing lines. A cursive, chancery hand is evidenced in the earliest Syriac manuscripts, but important works were written in Estrangelā. From the eighth century, the simpler Sertā style came into fashion, perhaps because of its more economical use of parchment. The Nabataean alphabet (which gave rise to the Arabic alphabet) was based on this form of Syriac handwriting. The Western script is usually vowel-pointed with miniature Greek vowel letters above or below the letter which they follow:

Capital alpha (Α) represents [a], transliterated as a or ă (ܦܬܚܐ, Pṯāḥā),
Lowercase alpha (α) represents [ɑ], transliterated as ā or â (ܙܩܦܐ, Zqāp̄ā; pronounced as [o] and transliterated as o in the West Syriac dialect),
Lowercase epsilon (ε) represents both [ɛ], transliterated as e or ĕ, and [e], transliterated as ē (ܪܒܨܐ, Rḇāṣā),
Capital eta (H) represents [i], transliterated as ī (ܚܒܨܐ, Ḥḇāṣā),
A combined symbol of capital upsilon (Υ) and lowercase omicron (ο) represents [u], transliterated as ū or u (ܥܨܨܐ, ‘Ṣāṣā).

The opening words of the Gospel of John written in Serṭā, Madnḥāyā and Esṭrangelā (top to bottom) — brēšiṯ iṯaw[hy]-[h]wā melṯā, 'in the beginning was the word'.The East Syriac dialect is usually written in the Madnḥāyā (ܡܕܢܚܝܐ, 'Eastern') form of the alphabet. Other names for the script include Swādāyā (ܣܘܕܝܐ, 'conversational', often translated as 'contemporary'), 'Assyrian' (not to be confused with the traditional name for the Hebrew alphabet), 'Chaldean', and, inaccurately, 'Nestorian' (a term that was originally used to refer to the Church of the East in the Persian Empire). The Eastern script resembles Estrangelā more closely than the Western script, being somewhat a midway point between the two. The Eastern script uses a system of dots above or below letters, based on an older system, to indicate vowels:

A dot above and a dot below a letter represent [a], transliterated as a or ă (ܦܬܚܐ, Pṯāḥā),
Two diagonally-placed dots above a letter represent [ɑ], transliterated as ā or â (ܙܩܦܐ, Zqāp̄ā),
Two horizontally-placed dots below a letter represent [ɛ], transliterated as e or ĕ (ܪܒܨܐ ܐܪܝܟܐ, Rḇāṣā arrīḵā or ܙܠܡܐ ܦܫܝܩܐ, Zlāmā pšīqā; often pronounced [ɪ] and transliterated as i in the East Syriac dialect),
Two diagonally-placed dots below a letter represent [e], transliterated as ē (ܪܒܨܐ ܟܪܝܐ, Rḇāṣā karyā or ܙܠܡܐ ܩܫܝܐ, Zlāmā qašyā),
A letter Yōḏ with a dot beneath it represents [i], transliterated as ī or i (ܚܒܨܐ, Ḥḇāṣā),
A letter Waw with a dot below it represents [u], transliterated as ū or u (ܥܨܨܐ ܐܠܝܨܐ, ‘Ṣāṣā allīṣā or ܪܒܨܐ, Rḇāṣā),
A letter Waw with a dot above it represents [o], transliterated as ō or o (ܥܨܨܐ ܪܘܝܚܐ, ‘Ṣāṣā rwīḥā or ܪܘܚܐ, Rwāḥā).
It is thought that the Eastern method for representing vowels influenced the development of the Niqqud markings used for writing Hebrew.

When Arabic began to be the dominant spoken language in the Fertile Crescent, texts were often written in Arabic with the Syriac script. These writings are usually called Karshuni or Garshuni (ܓܪܫܘܢܝ). Garshuni is often used today by Neo-Aramaic speakers in written communication such as letters and fliers.

Just for purposes of comparison between 'then' and 'now'

The 1928 Official Catholic Yearbook for the US (the first issued by PJ Kenedy - precursor to today's Official Catholic Directory for the US) reported the following (2010 AP figures are added in parentheses):

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Diocese (Galician)
(est. 5/28/1913)

Bishop: 1 (now: 7)
Active Secular Clergy: 93 (now 215, presumably includes retired, sick, on leave)
Active Religious Clergy: 5 (now 32, presumably also includes retired, sick, on leave)
Clergy Retired, Sick, On Leave: 4
Total Clergy: 102 (now 247)

Churches w/ Resident Priests: 96 (now 204 parishes)
Missions w/ Churches: 46

Parochial Schools: 141 w/ 15,775 pupils

Infant Baptisms: 8,678 - 36.6 per thousand (now 551 total, 9.2 per thousand)
Adult Baptisms: 167
Converts: 245
Marriages: 1,563
Deaths: 2,750

Convents: 6

Total Ukrainian Catholics: 237,495 (now 59,935)

-------------------------------------------

Diocese of Pittsburgh (Greek Ruthenian Rite)
(est. 2/25/1924) ('Embracing all Greek Catholics of Rusin, Hungarian-Magyar, and Croatian nationalities in the entire USA')

Bishop: 1 (now 5)
Secular Clergy: 138 (now 199)
Religious Clergy: 1 (now 25)
Total Clergy: 139

Churches w/ Resident Priests: 134 (now 218 parishes)
Missions w/ Churches: 39

Parochial Schools: not reported

Infant Baptisms: 7,240 - 23.4 per thousand (now 504 total, 5.7 per thousand)
Adult Baptisms: 156
Converts: not reported
Marriages: 2,250
Deaths: 4,786

Convents: not reported

Total Greek (Ruthenian) Catholics: 309,046 (now 88,093)

Just by way of comparison - there were 15 Latin Archdioceses in the US that year, the Ruthenian population in 1928 exceeded that of 7 of those and that of all but 8 of the 88 Latin dioceses.

Many years,

Neil