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#352156 - 09/02/10 12:52 PM Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
'The Odesa Eparchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate published an official statement regarding the possibility of constructing a Greek Catholic church in Odesa. "In Odesa, where the vast majority of the residents are believers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, there is such a small number of Greek Catholics that there is no need to build not only a cathedral but even a prayer house for the Uniates," stated Metropolitan Ahafanhel (Savin) of Odesa and Izmail of the UOC, who is also a deputy of the Odesa Regional State Administration and a representative of the Party of Regions.

The statement reads that "the expected construction in Odesa, on the territory of the Prokhoriv Public Garden, of a cathedral of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is the Uniates' attempt to aggressive expand in the Odesa region."

As of March 2010, there are 10,000 Greek Catholics in Odesa. In addition, according to the Chancellor of Odesa-Crimean Exarchate of the UGCC, Volodymyr Zhdan, there are several large Greek Catholic communities in Odesa Oblast, such as Ilichivska, Rozdilnianska, Berezovska, etc. '

http://www.risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/37743/

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#352157 - 09/02/10 12:57 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
antv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 187
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Vladzyunyu
... there is no need to build not only a cathedral but even a prayer house for the Uniates,...


Honestly I find this statement quite disgusting.

I again thank the Lord not to have converted to Orthodoxy.

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#352158 - 09/02/10 01:01 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Just a follow-up to my original post. Because of size limitations in posting a Title to a new thread, the title I meant to put was "Metropolitan of Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) in Odesa denies Ukrainian Greek Catholics right to build Church" but that couldn't fit in so I posted the title that would fit.

I believe this story occurred at the same time the Odesa administration had given some buildings to the MP in Odesa. I think this also comes down to the question of "freedom of conscience" in Ukraine in the understanding of the Russian Orthodox Church's branch in Ukraine (UOC-MP). 10,000 Ukrainian Catholics would surely deserve a parish in North America should they want to build one; why should Ukraine be any different, regardless of where it is to be built?


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/02/10 01:01 PM)

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#352159 - 09/02/10 01:03 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Try "MP denies right of UGCC to build church in Odessa"

The entire issue of the Crimea is geopolitical and not religious. Power politics played for the highest stakes.

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#352162 - 09/02/10 01:11 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Try "MP denies right of UGCC to build church in Odessa"

The entire issue of the Crimea is geopolitical and not religious. Power politics played for the highest stakes.


Thanks Stuart. If the Mods wish to change the title that's fine by me. By the way, Odesa is not part of the Crimea or the Crimean question. It is a separate oblast in Ukraine. However, like in Crimea, I believe the MP Metropolitan in Odesa is engaging in politics (i.e. propagation of the "Russkiy Myr" as opposed to Ukrainian) as well.

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#352165 - 09/02/10 01:38 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
The issue is closely tied to the extension of basing rights for the Russian Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

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#352185 - 09/02/10 04:50 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1456
Loc: Norway
Very well, but Odessa is not in fact in the Crimea. Anyway, this kind of linkage between geopolitics and religious freedom is unworthy of the Russian Orthodox Church (Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate). Why should a hierarch of a non-Catholic Church get to decide the needs of an Eastern Catholic Church?

Disgusting, says I!

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#352194 - 09/02/10 06:29 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Latin Catholic]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
No, you are correct. The strategic objective is, ultimately, to detach that part of Ukraine from the rest of the country, giving Russia complete control over the northern coast of the Black Sea.

As to why the Moscow Patriarchate puts in its oar:

1. Failure to come to terms with the continued survival of the UGCC.
2. Failure to accept the legitimacy of the UGCC among the people of Ukraine.
3. Perceptions of the UGCC representing a moral challenge to the legitimacy of the MP, on the basis of its witness against and refusal to collaborate with the Communist regime.
4. The desire to align itself with the objectives of the Russian state, whose aim of recapturing the near-abroad becomes more transparent every day.

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#352200 - 09/02/10 06:55 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1456
Loc: Norway
The Moscow Patriarchate, through Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, has been sending very positive messages lately to the Catholic Church. How can this be reconciled with the tension clearly still existing in Ukraine? And to what extent can the Moscow Patriarchate be seen as distinct from the national security state of Vladimir Putin?


Edited by Latin Catholic (09/02/10 07:01 PM)

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#352201 - 09/02/10 07:00 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
sielos ilgesys Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1089
Loc: Texas/USA
I agree with Stuart K on this one, as on so many other issues.
This kind of behavior in the Name of Christ is outrageous and invites people toward atheism.

I think it's completely illegitimate for one Church to interfere in the internal matters of another Church, or to deny the right of this or that Church even to exist.

Competition among religions to a good thing as long as the playing field is even.

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#352202 - 09/02/10 07:23 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Nelson Chase Offline
Member

Registered: 01/12/09
Posts: 571
Loc: La Mesa, Ca
Quote:
"In Odesa, where the vast majority of the residents are believers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, there is such a small number of Greek Catholics that there is no need to build not only a cathedral but even a prayer house for the Uniates," stated Metropolitan Ahafanhel


It disturbs me that a Bishop would use such a derogatory term like Uniates.

Quote:
As of March 2010, there are 10,000 Greek Catholics in Odesa


Ten thousand people is not a small minority. Not allowing one Church for 10,000 people that is insane! That’s the size of a small Eparchy.

I also find it scary that a Bishop is also a state deputy and has the power to deny another Church the right to build a house of worship.

Quote:
The statement reads that "the expected construction in Odesa, on the territory of the Prokhoriv Public Garden, of a cathedral of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is the Uniates' attempt to aggressive expand in the Odesa region."


This is more in the realm of aggressively denying the freedom of religion and the peaceful co-existence of Greek Catholics by the Orthodox Church than a Greek Catholic conspiracy to aggressively expand in the Odesa region.
Lord have mercy!


Edited by Nelson Chase (09/02/10 07:26 PM)

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#352203 - 09/02/10 07:28 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Nelson Chase]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
It disturbs me that a Bishop would use such a derogatory term like Uniates.


It's not derogatory to them. That, I think, is the point: the Russians consider the Greek Catholics to be an alien imposition in their canonical territory, an attempt to subvert the Orthodox Church from within. The truthfulness, indeed, the utter improbability of such claims, does not enter into the picture.

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#352205 - 09/02/10 07:34 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Latin Catholic]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
The Moscow Patriarchate, through Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk, has been sending very positive messages lately to the Catholic Church. How can this be reconciled with the tension clearly still existing in Ukraine? And to what extent can the Moscow Patriarchate be seen as distinct from the national security state of Vladimir Putin?


On the former point, I believe one needs to understand that whatever positive messages the MP may send Rome, the MP will demand that the Vatican stop the Ukrainian Catholic Church from developing or growing. The MP has already hinted before that should the Vatican not deal with the Ukrainian Catholic situation there will be no chance of the Russian Orthodox Patriarch meeting the Pope. This is unchristian never mind blackmail. The MP cannot reconcile itself to the fact that of all the lands in the former Soviet Union (Russia, Ukraine, etc.) the most active per-person church attendance area is in the Ukrainian Catholic heartland of Halychyna.

As for the former point about the MP vis-a-vis Putin the K.G.B. autocrat, I personally believe they read from the same book in foreign affairs. Putin flipped at the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO. Likewise during the MP's visit to Ukraine the year before this, the main thrust to the faithful was not so much a moral one, as that Ukraine NOT join NATO. I still cannot get over the fact that while the UGCC was suffering under communist rule, today's MP, Kirill, at the tender age of 25 in 1971 was chosen to be the Russian Orthodox Church's representative to the World Council of Churches. Now ask yourself, knowing that these positions would have at the very least required the Communist Kremlin's approval, how did the future MP land this job? Former Russian Orthodox priest Gleb Yakunin, who was imprisoned under the Soviets, was I believe excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church AFTER the Soviet collapse for revealing the K.G.B. connections of modern-day Russian Orthodox prelates. You can look up under Keston College what Yakunin I believe said about today's MP back then.

Putin propagates that Ukraine is not a nation. Likewise, the MP propagates that Ukraine belongs to the "Russian world", completely ignoring Ukraine's separate history. The MP, imho, is just as much a secular imperialistic entity as it is a spiritual one, and this was true of it under the Tsars as well. It is the same symbiotic relationship between the ROC and state. I mean the MP even celebrates the anniversary of the founding of the atheist Soviet Union's development of nuclear weapons. The MP twists history and ignores Stalinist repression during WW2, and argues that the Great Patriotic War was a fight for Russian Orthodoxy. (the Great Patriotic War excluding the inconvenient period of Stalinist/Hitlerite collusion in 1939-41 when Eastern Europe was divvied up and repressed). I already posted this link elsewhere as to the possibility of the ROC being engaged in Russia's new Cold War with the West.

"French secret service fear Russian cathedral a spying front
The French secret service has reportedly expressed alarm over plans for a Russian Orthodox cathedral in Paris, fearing it will be used by Moscow as a front for spies."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ying-front.html

These are serious questions as to how much the ROC sees its mission in the Russian imperial context, and how much it sees it as spiritual.

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#352220 - 09/02/10 10:54 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
I guess I should also stop assuming that in posting a story from the "old country" that posters from North America and the rest of the world will automatically realize what is meant when the article states that Moscow's Metropolitan in Odesa is a deputy in the state assembly from the Partiya Regioniv or Regions Party.

First off, the Regions Party to which the MP Metropolitan in question belongs is the party headed by today's pro-Kremlin President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych - the man who tried to steal and falsify the presidential elections in 2004 during the Orange Revolution along with his cohorts as we have learned from such accounts as the Independent's Askold Krushelnycky's book on the Orange Revolution http://www.amazon.co.uk/Orange-Revolution-Personal-Journey-Ukrainian/dp/0436206234. Nobody was ever brought to account for falsifying the election results (though Russian President Putin congratulated Yanukovych TWICE even before the results were announced).

This Yanukovych has a criminal record and his political party basically started out as the political wing of the most vicious mafia clan in Ukraine - the Donetsk mafia from Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine's current parliament is run to a great degree by competing clans, the biggest and most vicious being the Donetsk. As Krushelnycky made clear in his book, Yanukovych even attempted to get a "sympathy vote" during those 2004 elections after pro-western Viktor Yushchenko was poisoned. In this regard, Yanukovych travelled to Ukrainian Catholicism's heartland in Ivano-Frankivsk. There Yanukovych was to attempt to put on a show of being the victim of an assassination attempt by pretend Ukrainian nationalists. The whole thing turned into a farce when Yanukovych was hit by an egg which he mistook for the cue to fall as if struck by a bullet. It's on youtube actually.

So this Yanukovych is the leader of the political party to which this Metropolitan of Odesa belongs. Yanukovych is now clamping down slowly on freedom of the press in Ukraine (5-yi Kanal) as Putin did before him and Yanukovych only promotes the Russian Orthodox Church or as it is euphemistically known in Ukraine - the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate).

So this is telling of the Odesa Metropolitan's view on politics. There are no doubt religious and sincere bishops, priests, and laity in this Orthodox Church but one must not forget that the largest Orthodox Church in Ukraine is not this one but the uncanonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyivan Patriarchate) which does not toe the Kremlin line.

Metropolitan Ahanfanhel of Odesa is known for his anti-Catholic and anti-Ukrainian, pro-Russian views. I threw his name in google in Ukrainian, my first language, to look up what backs up his reputation. I found this interesting article from the R.I.S.U. site, which site I used in the OP, by Volodymyr Melnyk which notes the peculiar fact that in 2002 this Ahanfanhel had written about the similarity of the Communist and Orthodox worldviews in that: "both are of similar mind in questions of human well-being".
http://risu.org.ua/ua/index/monitoring/33219/

This should not be as surprising as it seems. In Russia, Communist leader Zyuganov had high praise for the Russian Orthodox Church. In Ukraine, what is quite outstanding is that one of the most zealous pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian communists, Natalya Vitrenko, could become the head of a Union of Orthodox Women. http://risu.org.ua/ua/index/all_news/community/religion_and_policy/36878/

What allies the Communists and Russian Orthodox is their negative view of Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian national-consciousness.

I wish this were not the case. I really do. And I am not here to grind an axe. But there really is some substance to Ukrainian Catholics being outraged by the actions of the MP's Orthodox Church in Ukraine. The divide the MP is creating in Ukraine is not merely religious now, but political, and civilizational for that matter: what constitutes freedom of religion?

Hospody Pomylui. Lord Have Mercy.


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/02/10 11:03 PM)

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#352245 - 09/03/10 08:54 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7171
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
We certainly have enough faithful for the Synod to have erected an Exarchate for Odessa and Crimea with His Grace +Vasyl (Ivasiuk) ministering to the thousands of faithful who are there. Since the LDS have managed a place of worship in Odessa along with other new-comer sects, one would hope the UGCC could find a place of worship.

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#352304 - 09/03/10 07:06 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Diak]
Fr. Al Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
Dear Diak,
You make a good point.Sectarians are grabbing people right and left,both in Russia and Ukraine.Then there is the problem of militant Islam.
I'm no partisan of the Ukrainian Catholic Church,but I don't have a problem with that Church coexisting in the homeland alongside the Orthodox Church.The attempt of the MP to meddle in this situation is likely to strengthen anti-Orthodox feeling and could result is some hot-heads coming down hard against the Orthodox,in places like Poland,for example.

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#352308 - 09/03/10 07:58 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Fr. Al]
sielos ilgesys Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1089
Loc: Texas/USA
Sectarians? in Ukraine?

check out -
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/temples/

learn all about the brand-new, SPANKIN'-new Mormon temple in Kyiv. Read it and weep.

To think it was dedicated on August 29, 2010, of all days. The liturgical commemoration of the beheading of St. John the Baptist is grim enough reason to observe the day with fasting - now we all have yet another reason to mourn.

This edifice might not have been built if the Orthodox and the Catholics got along better. Maybe nobody would have felt a need for it. These temples are expensive and the Mormon conventicle constructs them only in places where the money-savvy leadership in Salt Lake believes there will be enough patrons to justify the expense.


Edited by sielos ilgesys (09/03/10 08:01 PM)

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#352314 - 09/03/10 08:40 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: sielos ilgesys]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: sielos ilgesys


This edifice might not have been built if the Orthodox and the Catholics got along better. Maybe nobody would have felt a need for it. These temples are expensive and the Mormon conventicle constructs them only in places where the money-savvy leadership in Salt Lake believes there will be enough patrons to justify the expense.


I agree absolutely in bemoaning the Mormons building in Ukraine, but sielos, you must understand in today's Ukraine, the Ukrainian Catholics have virtually no say in what properties are allotted for churches in the bulk of Ukraine (Central, Southern, and Eastern Ukraine). In Kyiv, the capital city, the Ukrainian Catholics have been begging for sometime for another church (just one) - the government will not allow it. The original foundation I believe for the Ukrainian Catholic Sobor in Kyiv was burnt down.

You see, what churches are built in Southern, Eastern and Central Ukraine are now very much in the hands of the Moscow Patriarchate's branch in Ukraine, and the government in the hands of the Donetsk clan Party of Regions. With the latter, money and bribes talk. Ukrainian Catholics are not awash in money or state-corruption. The UOC (MP) may sooner have mormons than Ukrainian Catholics build, especially if the hand that supports the Moscow Patriarchate now in Ukraine, the Party of Regions, allows for these sects to build.


So Ukrainian Catholics have absolutely no say, unfortunately, in the issue you raised. It is almost a non-entity when it comes to these questions in the bulk of the provinces of Ukraine.

Catholic/Orthodox polemics have nothing to do with these guys, the Mormons, Pentecostals, etc., gaining a foothold in Ukraine. You are overstating the power Ukrainian Catholicism has with the powers (ex-communists, oligarchs) that be in Ukraine. The Secret Service in Ukraine now (the organization that had the rector of the Ukrainian Catholic University, Father Gudziak, questioned) is now run by an oligarch who also runs a media empire which many believe is responsible for closing down all independent T.V. stations in Ukraine, as happened in Putin's Russia. The Secret Police (Sluzhba Bezpeky) were even awarded medals from the Russian Orthodox hierarchy. The Sluzhba Bezpeky, which is the Internal Police now in Ukraine, followed Putin's lead and closed off all archives dealing with the Soviet orchestrated famine in Ukraine (1932-33) with Yanukovych, Ukraine's MP President, saying there is nothing left to learn.

I wish the Ukrainian Catholics were allowed to compete with the new sects in Ukraine. Personally, I think we would do a better job than the current UOC (Moscow Patriarchate) which, unlike the Catholics, is colored by its past and now present collaboration with what is now becoming an authoritarian pro-Kremlin state.

So if anyone wants to give the Ukie Catholics a chance to fight for souls in the bulk of Ukraine, tell such people as the MP Metropolitan in Odesa to butt out, and let us freely build parishes where there is the demand. Otherwise, with no choice but the MP, these souls become open prey for the Mormons etc.


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/03/10 08:49 PM)

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#352315 - 09/03/10 09:22 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Pavel Ivanovich Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 2799
Loc: Western Australia
I think part of the problem is the UGCC is not seen as Ukrainian at all outside of the old Polish territories. A lady I know went home to see her family on the sea of Azov and when the subject of the UGCC came up they never once used the term Ukrainian but "Galitzian" for the UGCC. What surpised her even more was that they went on to say it was run by Canadians who had taken them over. In a way the UGCC is seen as not belonging, just like the returning Moslem Tartars who are mostly descendants of captured Ukrainian and Russian slaves anyway. Vested interests clearly want certain people to go away.

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#352320 - 09/03/10 10:32 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Pavel Ivanovich]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich
I think part of the problem is the UGCC is not seen as Ukrainian at all outside of the old Polish territories. A lady I know went home to see her family on the sea of Azov and when the subject of the UGCC came up they never once used the term Ukrainian but "Galitzian" for the UGCC. What surpised her even more was that they went on to say it was run by Canadians who had taken them over. In a way the UGCC is seen as not belonging, just like the returning Moslem Tartars who are mostly descendants of captured Ukrainian and Russian slaves anyway. Vested interests clearly want certain people to go away.


Dear Pavel, I agree to a certain extent but not all. The coming out of the catacombs and out of clandestine existence of Ukrainian Catholics in Galicia and Zakarpattia in 1986 and onward was entirely spontaneous and had nothing to do with the UGCC in Canada or elsewhere. The Ukr. Catholic Church had always been there in Galicia and Zakarpattia, even if in clandestine form in the villages and towns. Yosyp Terelia, one of the underground church's leaders, was kicked out of the Soviet Union by Gorbachev in the hopes that the spontaneous Ukrainian Catholic rebirth would stop, but it didn't. I remember the mass-protests in the late 1980s when hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians in Galicia took to the streets for Ukrainian independence and the legalization of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. It was absolutely organic and reflected popular opinion. The chains were to come off.

But there is also the question of even being a "Ukrainian" in Ukraine. Under the Soviets and enforced Russification of Ukraine, should a family move out of "Galicia" let's say, and move to Eastern or Southern Ukraine, should they even have spoken Ukrainian they were automatically and ridiculously called "bandyerovsty" (insurgent nationalists). An old girlfriend of mine from student days recalled what a terrible childhood she endured in Bila Tservka in Ukraine of all places where she was bullied ruthlessly for speaking Ukrainian. In the 1970s and 80s students from North America would visit Ukraine in travel groups and were astounded by the fact that in the capital city of Kyiv, of all places, if they spoke Ukrainian in stores, they would be told to speak "human" (i.e. Russian) instead, po liudske. Under Moscow's rule, there developed in Ukraine the whole inferiority complex of malorosiystvo which propagated that only Russian language, literature, and history were worthy and Ukrainian was just little Russian and anyone who spoke the language was laughed at, and anyone who God forbid defended the Ukrainian language or culture (or independent church - i.e. Father Romaniuk Ukrainian Orthodox) could be imprisoned (Ivan Dziuba, Vasyl Stus, the latter political prisoner dieing in the Gulag after Gorbachev had come to power).

People who grew up during Soviet times were fed a constant diet of "bourgeois-nationalist" Ukrainian bogeymen and Catholics. From the liquidation of the UGCC in 1946 until just about the end of the Soviet Union, Soviet Ukrainians were taught the UGCC to be a foreign entity and that any true UGCC left joined the Russian Orthodox Church in Lviv in 1946. But the Soviets surely took the UGCC seriously. When UGCC Patriarch Josyp Slipyj was in the Gulag, he was approached by the K.G.B. with the offer that he would be freed and become a Metropolitan in the Russian Orthodox Church if he only would renounce Ukrainian Catholicism. He didn't.

Soviet propaganda was much more successful than many could imagine in Canada or elsewhere. Not everywhere, but it took its toll on peoples' psychology in Ukraine and Russia. Even Party of Regions deputies from the Verkhovna Rada, from places like Donetsk, when they come to Canada repeat such astounding falsifications that they are not sure if Stalin orchestrated a famine/Holodomor in the 1930s.

Yes, there is this concept in Southern and Eastern Ukraine about Ukrainian Catholics but a lot of this has to do with the utter lack of acquaintance with the UGCC which really are not allowed out there much. (Indeed, if truth be told, it was the Roman Catholics who after the collapse of the Soviet Union thought that the Roman, not Ukrainian, Catholic Church should only be allowed to build outside of Galicia).

Then there is the question of the largest Orthodox denomination in Ukraine, not the Moscow Patriarchate, but the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate (14 million at last count to Moscow's 9 million), but it is uncanonical simply because Moscow refuses it autocephaly. The Russian Orthodox Church could have long ago prevented an Orthodox schism in Ukraine if they merely had let the Ukrainians have a truly autocephalous Church. They didn't and demanded that all Orthodox in Ukraine consider themselves members of the "Russian world", Russkyi Myr.

How Ukrainian is the Moscow Patriarchate vis-a-vis the Kyvian Patriarchate in Ukraine? There are really honest, devout people in the UOC-MP Church who are also nationally conscious, but they don't call the shots. The Kyivan Patriarchate, whatever one thinks of its leader, is filled with honest, devout priests, who don't worry what the Kremlin thinks but minister to the faithful.

I think I am like many Ukrainian Catholics when I see my church's ultimate destiny in being one with Ukrainian Orthodox in one Kyivan Church! This will not happen with the UOC (Moscow Patriarchate) in Ukraine which takes its orders from Moscow. It could happen, however, with the Kyivan Patriarchate should Filaret ever leave and constructive work begin.

Many Ukrainian Catholics are fed up with not being given Patriarchal Status de jure by Rome, simply because some quarters in the Vatican practice Ostpolitik and jump anytime the Russian Orthodox Church threatens to cut off relations with Rome should Ukrainians be given a Patriarchate or even endorse the building of Ukrainian Catholic Churches outside western Ukraine (and remember there are thousands of Ukrainian Catholics in eastern Ukraine whose families were forcibly moved there after WW2 but who kept quiet). If the Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchate ever got around to proclaiming a Kyivan Patriarchate (the Ukrainian Orthodox Church being under Constantinople originally), there would be much positive feedback from Ukrainian Catholics. Similarly, if the Vatican would be the first to proclaim a Ukrainian Catholic Patriarchate in Kyiv, this would surely force Moscow stop taking blackmail for granted in dealing with the Vatican. Indeed, it is only this year! that the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow finally put up a website in the Ukrainian language.

God does come before country of course but when the MP tells all believers in Ukraine to be loyal to Moscow and its political agenda and consider themselves part of the Russian world; well, then the MP has brought politics unfortunately into the whole equation. I only pray God this whole atmosphere in Ukraine change for the better soon.

Z Bohom,





Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/03/10 10:52 PM)

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#352322 - 09/03/10 11:54 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Sorry Pavel. I just realized as a new member that I can see profiles. I note with happiness you are a Byzantine Russian Catholic. (I truly hope my defense of Ukrainian churches and culture was not untoward). wink

Just out of interest, what would a Byzantine Russian Catholic think of today's Russian Orthodox Church? Please do not feel obligated to answer, as I only ask out of complete ignorance.


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/03/10 11:56 PM)

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#352325 - 09/04/10 01:04 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: sielos ilgesys]
Mike L. Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 220
Loc: NE PA by way of AZ
Originally Posted By: sielos ilgesys
Sectarians? in Ukraine?

check out -
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/temples/

learn all about the brand-new, SPANKIN'-new Mormon temple in Kyiv. Read it and weep.

To think it was dedicated on August 29, 2010, of all days. The liturgical commemoration of the beheading of St. John the Baptist is grim enough reason to observe the day with fasting - now we all have yet another reason to mourn.



Just to clarify, this dedication did not fall on the commemoration of the Beheading- Orthodox and Catholics in Ukraine will be celebrating the Beheading of St. John the Baptist on August 29th of the Original Orthodox Calendar which falls on Sept. 11th of the secular calendar.


Edited by Mike L. (09/04/10 01:05 AM)

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#352328 - 09/04/10 01:18 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Vladzyunyu Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Loc: Canada
And just to get back to the original post, what makes this whole episode so egregious is that the political party the Odesa Orthodox Metropolitan belongs to, the ruling Regions of Ukraine party, apparently uses State Income to pay for the building of only Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate) Churches in Ukraine. So much for separation of church and state. The following article from R.I.S.U. from August 26, 2010, in Russian notes that "Кабмин вытащил из карманов иудеев, мусульман и прочих верующих и неверующих карманов деньги на достройку двух храмов УПЦ МП на Юго-Востоке." which translates into "The Cabinet of Ministers [of Ukraine] has taken from the pockets of Jews, Muslims, and other believers and unbelievers monies for additional construction of two Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) churches in the South and East", to draw attention to the fact that the taxes of all people of all confessions and none, if used toward religion by Yanukovych, seem to only go to the Moscow Patriarchate.
http://risu.org.ua/ua/index/monitoring/society_digest/37652

Hmm


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/04/10 01:20 AM)

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#352360 - 09/04/10 12:47 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
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Registered: 07/15/02
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Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Vladzyunyu
... the taxes of all people of all confessions and none, if used toward religion by Yanukovych, seem to only go to the Moscow Patriarchate.

FWIW, the only canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine is the MP.

(Of course, I suspect that the EP's failure to recognize the KP is directly related to the fact that it cannot afford to oppose the MP, which is the true power-broker of the EOC.)

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#352362 - 09/04/10 01:00 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Epiphanius]
Vladzyunyu Offline
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Yes, I know that. But there is a history in the Orthodox world of churches proclaiming autocephaly on their own and not being recognized as canonically autocephalous for some time (Russian Orthodox Church) or proclaiming a patriarchate for that matter and waiting for recognition from the EP or other churches.

The other point is that even the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada for one, I believe, which is under the EP and canonical, does not recognize as valid the 1686 transfer of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church away from Constantinople to Moscow's jurisidiction. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada even uses material authored by the noncanonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyivan Patriarchate) in its services.

Your point on the EP and the MP is quite true.

God Bless.


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/04/10 01:01 PM)

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#352367 - 09/04/10 04:39 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Yuhannon Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
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Shlomo Bohom,

What is even more disreptible is that Russian Byzantine Catholics are denied even exarchal status.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

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#352388 - 09/05/10 11:40 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Yuhannon]
Alfonsus Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
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This is one interesting point I always have in mind.
If like always said, that communion in Orthodox church is purely in faith and in sacrament, then this situation should not occur.

There should be no obstacle at all, for instance, that a priest of Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate concelebrates with a priest of Ukrainian Patriarchate.

They subscribe to the same faith, yes?
Plus, if as always insisted that a bishop is equal to any other bishop, even a patriarch and responsible only to the Lord, then there is no obstacle to separate himself from one church and enter another one or create a new independent one.
Other churches may not agree, but since this one is of the same faith and same Eucharist, practically, there should be no obstacle for concelebration.

Except, if this problem of jurisdiction is defined as part of the Orthodox faith and a church visible reality is defined by, say, communion of a bishop with a patriarch for instance.
In my understanding, separating a portion of the church from other church is discipline matter, not related to faith.

But if this separation is enough for a declaration of 'no-grace, heresy and breach of communion,' then I wonder how this actually in reality is different from how the Catholic church see that communion with the Pope is a necessity.

Is my understanding correct?

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#352392 - 09/05/10 03:39 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: antv]
AMM Offline
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Originally Posted By: antv
I again thank the Lord not to have converted to Orthodoxy.


Seeing as how this issue has nothing to do with theology, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Should Orthodox Christians congratulate themselves similarly if they became aware of sinful actions among the clergy or hierarchy of other churches?

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#352393 - 09/05/10 07:07 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: AMM]
Irish Melkite Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
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Originally Posted By: AMM
Originally Posted By: antv
I again thank the Lord not to have converted to Orthodoxy.


Seeing as how this issue has nothing to do with theology, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Should Orthodox Christians congratulate themselves similarly if they became aware of sinful actions among the clergy or hierarchy of other churches?


AMM makes a valid point and this thread is moving further and further from the news item, making its imminent closure very likely. If folks want to refocus on the news item, please do so, moving tangential discussions to a new thread in an appropriate forum (Town Hall comes to mind).

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#352410 - 09/06/10 10:31 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Quote:
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Canada even uses material authored by the noncanonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyivan Patriarchate) in its services.


So far as I am aware, particularly in the matter of service-books it is mainly a question of Ukrainian translations of existing Orthodox service-books, not of writing new ones.

But the basic point is quite simple: a good book is a good book, regardless of who published it. During the Soviet period, many Russian Orthodox hierarchs and clergy used service-books published by the Holy See of Rome. That did not make these clergy Roman Catholics.

Fr. Serge

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#352413 - 09/06/10 12:22 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
AMM Offline
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Quote:
So much for separation of church and state.


I think there is a lot more complexity in that statement than one might assume.

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#352415 - 09/06/10 12:35 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: AMM]
StuartK Offline
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Loc: Falls Church, VA
The relationship between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian government has not been the kind of symphonia that existed between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire. Since the time of Peter the Great (and some would even say Ivan Grozny), the Church has been subordinated to the state (legally and factually true under the later Tsars and the Communists). If ever the myth of caesaropapism was correct, it would have to be in Russia. Many of us hoped that with the end of communism, the Russian Church would be able to free itself from the shackles of dependency on the Russian state, but while the shackles are now velvet rather than iron, they remain shackles nonetheless.

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#352433 - 09/06/10 05:56 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
AMM Offline
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So the question isn't separation of church and state (and I probably don't need to point out the Catholic Church is still recognized as the state church in several countries, I assume people are fully aware of that), but what relation the state and church should have. Especially in the Byzantine tradition where they have been so closely interlinked.

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#352447 - 09/06/10 06:52 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: AMM]
StuartK Offline
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Interlinked is not necessarily the right term for the Byzantine experience. Interdependent would be more applicable: the State depends on the Church for moral and spiritual guidance; the Church depends on the state to protect it from external enemies and to maintain internal order when ecclesiastical authority does not suffice. But the Church should never be subordinate to the state or its interests, when those are antithetical to the Gospel.

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#352456 - 09/06/10 07:52 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
Vladzyunyu Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
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Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: StuartK
The relationship between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian government has not been the kind of symphonia that existed between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Byzantine Empire. Since the time of Peter the Great (and some would even say Ivan Grozny), the Church has been subordinated to the state (legally and factually true under the later Tsars and the Communists). If ever the myth of caesaropapism was correct, it would have to be in Russia. Many of us hoped that with the end of communism, the Russian Church would be able to free itself from the shackles of dependency on the Russian state, but while the shackles are now velvet rather than iron, they remain shackles nonetheless.


In my opinion, this is absolutely correct from Stuart and the description of the problem. The problem is magnified by the fact that the Russian State in this case is run by a K.G.B. (now called F.S.B.) autocrat in my opinion and in the opinion of many. The new issue of Foreign Affairs journal put out by the Council of Foreign Relations in the U.S. has an article on the Secret Police's role in the running of the Russian State called "K.G.B. 2.0" or Russia's New Nobility. What relationship should the Church take to a government run by an institution responsible for such repression and violence? Putin sees today's F.S.B. as a continuation of the Soviet Secret Police.

Should the Church support wholeheartedly the policies advocated by such a state. For instance, a Russian cabinet minister responsible for health in Russia just proclaimed that Russians should drink and smoke more, to help out the economy. For real. Has the Church no power to speak out against such inept and immoral advice from above? Or should the church itself become involved in the tobacco trade?

I apologize that politics enters into questions of religion and "Church News", but this is certainly the case in Russia as Stuart I believe has mentioned (caesaropapism). There is no clear border.

In Russia, the big word is "Vertical Power"; there is no division of power that we are accustomed to in the West: legislative, executive, and judiciary - checks and balances - which in Russia do not exist, only virtually. The center - Putin - appoints the regional gubernatorial heads as well. How does an Eastern Church fit into a "Vertical Power" society? This may be an uncomfortable question, but it is a real question, the answer to which will affect the well-being of millions of believers - Catholic and Orthodox.

And now this model is being attempted to be put into force in Ukraine by Viktor Yanukovich, which raises all the problems addressed in my original O.P. - a Church Metropolitan becoming a parliamentary deputy (hence, gaining deputy's "immunity" (nedotorkanist') before the law) and using such a position to stop a sizable number of faithful of a national church from being able to practice their faith and worship before God. In posting this post, I think about those 10,000 of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ being denied an elementary right. This is a real issue, and not just a forum talking point from me.

In Christ.


Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/06/10 08:04 PM)

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#352461 - 09/06/10 08:26 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
Quote:
In my opinion, this is absolutely correct from Stuart and the description of the problem. The problem is magnified by the fact that the Russian State in this case is run by a K.G.B. (now called F.S.B.) autocrat in my opinion and in the opinion of many. The new issue of Foreign Affairs journal put out by the Council of Foreign Relations in the U.S. has an article on the Secret Police's role in the running of the Russian State called "K.G.B. 2.0" or Russia's New Nobility. What relationship should the Church take to a government run by an institution responsible for such repression and violence? Putin sees today's F.S.B. as a continuation of the Soviet Secret Police.

Should the Church support wholeheartedly the policies advocated by such a state. For instance, a Russian cabinet minister responsible for health in Russia just proclaimed that Russians should drink and smoke more, to help out the economy. For real. Has the Church no power to speak out against such inept and immoral advice from above? Or should the church itself become involved in the tobacco trade?


You are making assertions with no basis, and accusing the church of things it has not done.

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#352463 - 09/06/10 08:41 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: AMM]
Vladzyunyu Offline
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Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: AMM


You are making assertions with no basis, and accusing the church of things it has not done.


I am not sure what assertions I am making with no basis. On Putin and the State one can quite easily check out Radio Free Europe's reports or Freedom House. On a Russian minister encouraging drinking and smoking, this for real was covered in national newspapers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/01/russian-minister-urges-ci_n_702173.html

I am not sure what to add. Donald Rayfield of the University of London has dealt with the Secret Police and the relationship of the Russian government to it. Do you believe Russia is a democracy? Freedom of Assembly? Boris Nemstov was just arrested last week for attempting to uphold freedom of assembly. I was asking whether the Russian Orthodox Church should deal with these issues head-on.

In any event, so as not to get this thread throw down to Town Hall, closed, or falling into an argument, back to the O.P.: do you agree that the Ukrainian Catholics in Odesa should have no right to build a church, yes or no? I'd like to stick with this issue then.

In Christ.



Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/06/10 08:44 PM)

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#352471 - 09/06/10 11:07 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
StuartK Offline
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Registered: 11/09/01
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Loc: Falls Church, VA
I may have posted this essay by Taras Kuzio, a visiting scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Transatlantic Relations on the Yanukovich government to date, but it pretty much bears out other statements made here.

Quote:
Viktor Yanukovych: The First 100 Days
By Taras Kuzio

Attempting to see into President Viktor Yanukovych’s mindset is not easy, although there aremany clues from his social, economic, regional and political background. These factors wereignored by the majority of Western analysts and journalists writing about Ukraine.

No Reformer

Yanukovych’s presidency will not bring reform to Ukraine for two reasons.
Government. The make-up of the Yanukovych administration and government is not, as hepromised up to and during the 2010 election campaign, composed of technocrats and reformers but former Kuchma officials with disreputable pasts, those with Sovietophile leanings and half of the cabinet drawn from only one region (Donetsk). Four cabinet members, including the prime minister and one deputy prime minister, are of retirement age while another 15 ministers are in their late 50s. The formative years of Prime Minister Nikolai Azarov, at 62, and the majority of the cabinet ministers, were during the Leonid Brezhnev ‘era of stagnation’ in the 1970s.

This is the first of seventeen governments over two decades of Ukrainian independence with not a single woman cabinet minister. Indeed, both Yanukovych and Azarov have poured disdain on women and Yanukovych made an excuse to not attend a televised election debate with Tymoshenko because she, like all women, he believed, should ‘be in the kitchen’ and not in politics.

Following Yushchenko’s election a generational shift moved Ukraine’s ruling elites to the middle generation who are less tainted by Soviet rule and the Brezhnev era, having built their careers in the 1980s and 1990s. The Yanukovych era has taken Ukraine again to the Kuchma era when it was ruled by the older, far more neo-Soviet, generation who launched their careers in the 1970s. With that generational shift comes an ideological shift to fetishisation of an authoritarian ‘vertical of power’, ‘stability’ and nostalgia for Russia and the Soviet past.

Policies.

As the violent events in the Ukrainian parliament on 27 April during the ratification of the Black Sea Fleet base treaty showed, the administration’s policies will bring instability – not stability – to Ukraine. The undertaking of radical and unpopular reforms requires political stability and national consensus both of which are unlikely to appear Ukraine.

He Will Deliver Instability, Not Stability

President Yanuovych will be unable to bring stability to Ukraine for two reasons.
Regionalism. Ukraine’s regional divisions will prevent any political force from building a monopoly of power. The Party of Regions is unpopular in Kyiv and Central Ukraine, let alone in Western Ukraine. Ukraine, divided by language and historical legacies, could never develop a nationalism that would unite behind the Party of Regions. This is again different to Russia where Russian great power, anti-Western nationalism has mobilized around the Unified Russia party led by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. Democratic and nationalist opposition will inevitably grow to the administration.

Bribery.

Ukrainians cannot be bought off as Ukraine is not Russia where abundant deposits of
raw materials are exported and bring large amounts of income to the state budget. President Putin was fortunate in being able to buy off Russians by trading stability for democracy through record high oil and gas prices throughout most of this decade.

The Yanukovych Enigma

The ignoring of the factors that go to make up Yanukovych’s personality was because many Ukrainian and Western experts and analysts had convinced themselves during Ukraine’s 2010 presidential election campaign that Yanukovych had ‘changed’ over the last five years. A Financial Times (10 January 2010) editorial wrote, ‘Only a stable Ukraine can achieve economic reform and recovery. Ms Tymoshenko is the polar opposite of a stabilising force. Mr Yanukovich, for all his manifest faults, may prove the lesser evil’.

He has been using American political and election consultants and the spring 2009 Party of Regions congress that put forward his candidacy had all the hallmarks of a candidate’s launch in an American election campaign. The most optimistic vision of a ‘changed’ Yanukovych was given in the 8 February opinion editorial in the Wall Street Journal entitled ‘Reintroducing Viktor Yanukovych’.

Some of this mistaken optimism in Yanukovych was understandable after five years of wasted opportunities under President Yushchenko. Ukraine fatigue in the West emerged after years of political instability, constitutional crises, inter-elite fighting, and Ukraine (together with Iceland, Hungary and Latvia), experiencing Europe’s worst economic-financial recession, forcing the government to seek an emergency IMF Stand-by Agreement. An allegedly ‘changed’ Yanukovych, who was now touted as a new-born democrat, seemed to be like a breath of fresh air who promised to bring ‘stability’ and reforms to Ukraine.

Tymoshenko, in contrast, was depicted by the Western media as the ‘chameleon’ and ‘populist’ and was negatively associated with five years of ‘orange’ misrule. In the most interesting aspects of Ukraine’s election campaign it was Tymoshenko who was more often than not seen both in the West and in Ukraine as the greater threat to Ukraine’s young democracy than Yanukovych.

The first two months of Yanukovych’s presidency have shown how wrong were these views.

The spring 2009 congress that launched Yanukovych’s candidacy was ‘respectable and modern’, Ukrayinska Pravda (25 April 2010) reported. The 23 April congress that passed the leadership back to Prime Minister Azarov (who was the Party of Regions first leader in 2001-2003) was, in contrast, more similar to a ‘party-economic meeting in the Soviet tradition with delegates transforming themselves into live exponents of Lenin’s museum’. The congress was held in the former Lenin Museum, now Ukrainian House (Ukrayinska Pravda, 25 April 2010). A lack of discussion and criticism, unanimity of voting and Soviet style atmosphere was described by Ukrainian journalists as a ‘party congress from the Soviet era’ with the leadership question taking place ‘according to the best canons of a CPSU congress’. Gone was the 2009 American-style congress that had convinced so many domestic and Western analysts of Yanukovych’s transformation into a born-again democrat. In was the real Yanukovych now firmly ensconced in power.

It took Leonid Kuchma until his second term in office in November 2000, when the Kuchmagate crisis unfurled, for his reputation to be tarnished and for Ukraine be increasingly described as a semi-authoritarian political system. It took only two months before criticism began to appear of the emergence of threats to media pluralism and Ukraine slipping back to semi-authoritarianism.

Following Yanukovych’s speech to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) former co-rapporteur of the Monitoring Committee of the PACE on Ukraine Hanne Severinsen said, ‘In my opinion, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe should in no way halt its monitoring of Ukraine. On the contrary, even now, there are new grounds for the continuation of such monitoring’. Severinsen pointed to democratic regression in such areas as the presidential monopolization of power, infringements of the constitution, threats to media pluralism and ignoring of the rights of the opposition.

Yanukovych and Putin

If it is Yanukovych’s intention to establish an autocracy he is not taking his cues from Putin who transformed Russia into an authoritarian system in an evolutionary fashion over the four years of his first term in office (2000-2004). Western views of Russia only began to change towards the end of his first term and the erosion of Russia’s democracy was noted from 2005 onwards. The New York-based human rights think tank Freedom House downgraded Russia in 2005 from ‘partly free’ to ‘unfree’. In that same year Ukraine was upgraded from ‘partly free’ to ‘free’ which it has maintained throughout Yushchenko’s tumultuous five years in office.

During Putin’s first term in office he removed threats to the regime he sought to build in a piecemeal fashion by using ‘salami tactics’ against different societal groups such as the media, oligarchs, opposition and Chechen separatists. Putin’s evolutionary path is different to Yanukovych’s strategy; his first two months in office have shown that he is a revolutionary seeking to push his policies through in the shortest possible time frame with no regard for domestic or Western public opinion.

Why the Rush? Five Possible Explanations

Social.

Yanukovych’s way of approaching political power is a reflection of his lower working class roots, tough upbringing and former criminal past. Yanukovych grew up as an orphan on the streets of the USSR and spent two or three periods in jail. These prison sentences give the potential for blackmail to Russian leaders who have inherited Soviet files on him that would not have been difficult for a former KGB officer, such as Prime Minister Putin, to obtain. In the Soviet era, Yanukovych oversaw, as Donetsk governor, the wild capitalism of Ukraine’s transition to a market economy. Donetsk, together with the Crimea and Odesa, were the three most violent regions in the 1990s and are today Party of Regions strong holds.

Yanukovych’s social and criminal background inevitably influences his lack of finesse and inarticulateness (his gaffes are legendary), his emphasis upon achieving goals regardless of the means employed, even if this means ignoring legal niceties. Ihor Zhdanov explained that, ‘‘the slogan ‘everything and right now’ and the ‘aim justifies the means’ obviously have become the political credo of the new authorities team’ (Zerkalo Nedeli/Dserkalo Tyzhnia, 24-29 April 2010).

The ‘ends justify the means’ was as much influential in driving Yanukovych as a candidate in 2004, which led to Ukraine’s most fraudulent election campaign, as it is in 2010 after he came to power. It was always wrong to assume that Yanukovych circa 2004 is any different to Yanukovych circa 2010.

Kuchma, in contrast to Yanukovych, belonged to the Soviet nomenklatura; he was the director of the world’s largest military-industrial plant manufacturing nuclear weapons with a telephone direct line to the Soviet leader. Anecdotal evidence points to Kuchma never giving his full backing to Yanukovych as a candidate in the 2004 elections and that he was quite willing to dump him after the second round. Kuchma telephoned Putin, then on an official visit to Brazil, a day after the second round to ask for advice as to how to respond to the growing number of protestors on the streets of Kyiv that grew into the Orange Revolution. Putin replied that the choice was either to declare a state of emergency or to transfer power to Yanukovych. Kuchma’s
response was indicative: ‘How can I transfer power to him, Vladimir Vladimirovych? He is a Donetsk criminal!’ Kuchma had little faith in Yanukovych’s intellectual potential, was unsure about his close links to oligarchs and organized crime and saw him as a decoy to counter the opposition and railroad through constitutional reforms. These events are described in many places, including in Andrew Wilson, Ukraine’s Orange
Revolution (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2005).

At 59, Yanukovych is unlikely to change his way of undertaking tasks and responsibilities from the way he has always been used to undertaking them in the USSR and in Ukraine. Putin’s ‘salami tactics’ and Kuchma’s playing off of Ukraine’s business and political elites, both using evolutionary methods, are very different approaches to Yanukovych’s revolutionary methods.

Ideological.

Yanukovych’s statements between elections, his election campaign rhetoric and
Party of Regions and his own candidate’s election programmes show him to be ideologically pro-Russian. But, these have been largely ignored by Western observers of Ukraine and have been dismissed in one of two ways.

1.Pragmatists and Kuchma’s Multi-Vectorism.

The first is to argue that the Party of Regions is controlled by ‘pragmatic’ oligarchs who desire to become bona fide businessmen, playing by the rules and who value integration into Europe over that of integration with Russia and the CIS. Paulius Kuncinas writing for the Oxford Business Group (3 March 2010) emphasized the
pragmatism of the Yanukovych team and his desire to ‘return to a more pragmatic phase of realpolitik’. Kuncinas stressed that, ‘there seems to be a genuine attempt among politicians from Donetsk to bridge the national divide and widen their popular mandate beyond their Russophile heartlands’. Adrian Karatnycky wrote a day after Yanukovych was elected that, ‘the oligarchs round Mr Yanukovych became economically transparent. They hired first-rate managers, rigorously paid their taxes, promoted sophisticated philanthropy, and became globalized in their tastes and manners. Just as importantly, they now see their future prosperity integrally linked to a reduction in corruption, the expansion of free market policies, lower taxes, fewer regulations, and Ukraine's eventual integration into the rich EU market’ (Wall Street Journal, 8 February).

Andrew Wilson writing for the European Couuncil on Foreign Relations believed that‘Yanukovych could turn out to be better for Europe than many expect. In fact, he might even become something like Ukraine’s Richard Nixon…’2 Wilson downplayed Yanukovych’s interest in national identity issues that are highly contentious in Ukraine.

Ukrainian analyst Mykola Riabchuk predicted that Yanukovych would return Ukraine to a Kuchma era multi-vector foreign policy as integration with Russia and the CIS is not ‘in the interests of Ukrainian business and the political class’ (www.eurozine.com, 4 March 2010).

Writing after the turbulent events of late April in parliament, Wilson still remained convinced that ‘Ukraine is back to playing the game it knows best: the balancing act between East and West’. Wilson argues, like many Western commentators, that Ukraine’s oligarchs cannot become russophiles or slavophiles because ‘They still want to protect their own ‘back yard’’ from Russian encroachments.

Yanukovych’s first two months in office point to little evidence of such optimism about the domination of ‘pragmatists’ in the Party of Regions over its ideological wing who will seek to foster national unity. The first 100 days in office points to ideologically driven pro-Russian domestic nationality and foreign policies. Indeed, while Yanukovych has camouflaged his views through the use of American political consultants and choreographed statements and comments, especially during election campaigns and foreign visits, Azarov has never hidden his Sovietophle and russophile views. While Yanukovych learnt the Ukrainian language in the 2004 election campaign Azarov has always ignored Ukrainian legislation refusing to learn the state language
for government positions he held in the Kuchma era or currently as prime minister.

2. Election programmes are not fulfilled.

The second argument is to believe that election statements and programmes have no value in Ukraine as they are meant to mobilize voters and are always ignored following elections. Kuchma’s 1994 election is always cited as evidence of this where he fought the elections in support of making Russian an ‘official language’ only to forget about this policy after he came to power. When asked by Radio Free Europe ‘Is there anything Viktor Yanukovych has surprised you with in these two months?’ former President Yushchenko said ‘One thing -- speed. He did what was written in his election slogans...’ In the first two months in office Yanukovych has shown that he is more than ready to implement his pro-Russian rhetoric in both the domestic and foreign domains. These include the re-writing of school textbooks, Soviet tirades against ‘Ukrainian nationalism’, preference for the monopolization of religious life by the Russian Orthodox Church, servility for Russian policies in the CIS and support for re-uniting major areas of the Ukrainian and Russian economies.

Yanukovych supported calls for extending the Black Sea Fleet base in Sevastopol long before the global financial crisis hit Ukraine’s economy in 2008 which casts doubt on the official justification for the 27 April 2010 treaty that Ukraine was forced to take this step because of its dire economic and financial situation. Yanukovych has long espoused antagonism towards the Georgian leadership and the GUAM (Georgia Ukraine-Azerbaijan-Moldova) regional group and supported the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In all of these areas Yanukovych is showing himself to be different to former President Kuchma.

Revenge.

Yanukovych and the Donetsk clan have waited for five years for their chance to take their revenge against the ‘orangists’. Revenge in Western political systems is an unusual concept and Western observers of Ukraine have therefore failed to grasp this component of the mindset of the Yanukovych administration. Revenge is personally and ideologically driven.

1.Personal Revenge.

Yanukovych always felt personally humiliated after the second round of the
2004 elections through what he, and his supporters, was a deeply felt betrayal by Kyiv’s ruling elites who, fearful of the mass crowds in the Orange Revolution, did a deal at EU-brokered round-tables that facilitated Yushchenko’s election in the re-run second round on 26 December. Yanukovych and Eastern Ukrainians believe in a similar conspiracy theory to that found in Russia; namely, that Yushchenko’s election and the Orange Revolution was facilitated by Western forces (most notably the US and the Bush administration’s democracy promotion agenda). This mindset, whether in Eastern Ukraine or Russia, does not believe that the millions who participated in the Orange Revolution did so voluntarily and they therefore dismiss claims that the 17-day protests were a genuine popular protest. This conspiracy mindset has deep Soviet
roots that looked at dissident groups as Western-funded, rather than home-grown, phenomenon manipulated by Western intelligence agencies and émigré diaspora groups. Yanukovych believes he won the 2004 elections in a fair contest where there was no fraud and if there were ‘minor infringements’ then these took place on both sides which thereby cancelled each other out. Although the Supreme Court ruled on 3 December 2004 that there had been systematic fraud and demanded a re-run on 26 December there have never been criminal charges launched against the organizers of election fraud. This has always emboldened Yanukovych and his team that they had won the second round but were then ‘betrayed’. As Yanukovych repeatedly said, no criminal charges meant, in his view, that there was no election fraud.

Unfortunately, no Western governments took notice of Yanukovych’s views of the 2004 elections and Orange Revolution that flatly contradicted the optimism of him as a pragmatic new-born democrat. If true, Yanukovych the democrat would have admitted responsibility to election fraud and accepted the 2004 election results. That was never the case and in his view Yushchenko was always therefore an illegitimate president brought to power by American ‘political technology’.

2.Ideological.

Yanukovych’s election is also a fortuitous opportunity to take revenge on the
‘nationalists’ who allegedly ran Ukraine under Yushchenko. Similar ‘anti-nationalist’ sentiment was aired by the Kuchma campaign in the 1994 elections when it was directed against incumbent ‘nationalist’ Leonid Kravchuk. Dmytro Tabachnyk headed Kuchma’s 1994 election campaign and went on to become chief of staff of Kuchma’s presidential administration. The Kuchma regime revived Soviet-style anti-nationalist propaganda in the 2002 and 2004 elections as an ideological tool against the opposition to mobilize the Russophone vote against the ‘nationalist’ Our Ukraine and Yushchenko. Ukrainian surveys have long shown that negative voting (i.e. voting against a party or candidate rather than in favour of one) is highest in Eastern Ukraine and the Crimea.

Ideological revenge could explain why Tabachnyk is Minister of Education and Science in the Azarov government. Tabachnyk wrote last year that Galicians are not really ‘Ukrainians’, a position long held by only the most extreme Russian nationalists. Hostility to Western Ukrainians and diaspora Ukrainians (who mainly came from Western Ukraine) was a long staple of Soviet tirades against ‘bourgeois nationalism’. David Marples writes that Yanukovych’s, ‘appointment of Dmytro Tabachnyk as minister for science and education seemed calculated to inflame Western Ukrainians’ (Kyiv Post, 26 April).

Much of the desire for ideological revenge rests on the over-domination of nation-building issues in Yushchenko’s presidency. His January 2010 decree to honour Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists leader Stepan Bandera crowned his presidency and provoked a counter-reaction from Eastern Ukraine that led to a higher vote for Yanukovych in the second round and the later over-turning of the decree in a Donetsk court. The timing of the decree was unfortunate, provocative and unnecessary.

The Azarov government is seeking to quickly move in many areas of ideological revenge. These include downplaying the 1933 holodomor as a Ukrainian genocide or even artificial famine that primarily affected Ukraine, removing quotas on using the Ukrainian language in film, television and other areas of culture, jointly re-writing history school textbooks with Russia, and introducing a more Sovietophile outlook on Ukrainian-Russian relations and Ukrainian history.

World War II is now to be officially described as the ‘Great Patriotic War’ and Russian troops participated in four parades in four Ukrainian cities on the 65th anniversary of the ending of the second world war. All of these steps constitute a counter-revolution not only against Yushchenko’s radical nation-building efforts but even against Kuchma’s more moderate nationality policies which were similar in content to his successor but were delivered with greater finesse.

Time Factor.

There is a time factor as Ukraine is a parliamentary republic (not presidential as was Russia when Putin came to power in March 2000). Ukraine will hold parliamentary elections in September 2012 and Yanukovych therefore needs to rapidly push through his domestic and foreign policies while he still has a window of opportunity. ‘Orange’ political forces won majorities in the March 2006 (i.e. Tymoshenko bloc [BYuT], Our Ukraine, Socialist Party) and September 2007 pre-term elections (i.e. BYuT, Our Ukraine) and could again win a majority in 2012 and in so doing take back control of the government. This would mean, for example, that in 2012 a new coalition could annul the new Black Sea Fleet agreement extending the Sevastopol base until 2042-2047.

Authoritarianism Through Conflict.

The most pessimistic reason could be that Yanukovych is seeking his own Putinesque way to autocratic consolidation. Yanukovych could be thinking that an autocracy is best built through conflict and confrontation where the opposition would be depicted as ‘destructive’ (a favourite Soviet phrase used repeatedly in Ukraine) and agents of
‘instability’. Yanukovych, in contrast, would be described as bringing ‘stability’ to Ukraine, increasing social welfare payments, keeping gas prices low for household utility bills and rebuilding the economy and thereby reducing unemployment. These were the ideological tenets found in Yanukovych’s 28 April appeal to Ukrainians in support of the Black Sea Fleet base treaty.

Putin built up Russia’s autocracy through conflict by reviving the Chechen separatist war and on the back of alleged terrorist attacks. In September 1999, terrorist explosions took place in four apartment blocks in Buynaksk, Moscow, and Volgodonsk killing 293 people and injuring 651.

The terrorist attacks were blamed on Chechen separatists but they seemed very much out of character and suspicion fell upon the Russian intelligence services after a similar bomb was found and defused in the Russian city of Ryazan on 23 September 1999. On the next day Federal Security Service Director Nikolai Patrushev announced that the Ryazan incident had been a ‘training exercise’.

The administrations policies undermine the national consensus on domestic and foreign policies makes little sense unless he has another agenda which could be to build a ‘managed democracy’. The model would be the close nexus of state-big business-politics-corruption found in his home region of Donetsk where the Party of Regions has monopoly power. Speaking to a conference on Ukraine at George Washington University in early April, University of Florida’s Paul D’Anieri did not see encouraging signs for democracy in Ukraine: ‘Will there be free and fair elections in 2015? It's early, but the signs aren't encouraging. Already it appears that Yanukovych seeks to eliminate political competition in Ukraine, and it is questionable whether there is any force powerful enough to stop him’.

The prosecutor-general’s office have launched criminal charges against the opposition for their the disturbances in parliament on 27 April when eggs were thrown, smoke bombs were let off and violence was extensive. Kuchma era criminal charges have also been revived against Tymoshenko. Criminal charges are also reportedly in the pipeline against members of the outgoing Tymoshenko government for alleged corruption (i.e. theft from the state budget). Is this the beginning of a clampdown on the opposition to pave the way for a Party of Regions sweep to a full take over of Ukraine’s political system in 2012?

This is damaging his born-again democratic credentials that American consultants have nurtured for the last five years, uniting the fractious opposition, leading to the most violent scenes ever in Ukraine’s parliament during the Black Sea Fleet treaty ratification, and deepening even further Ukraine’s regional divisions. Putin-style ‘salami tactics’, for example, would have moved slower and in the process encouraged further defections from the opposition to give the coalition a 300-constitutional majority by fall 2010. The Black Sea Fleet base treaty would not have been ratified by 236 votes without the support of sixteen BYuT and Our Ukraine defectors.

The extension of the Black Sea Fleet base inflamed Ukrainian and opposition opinion both because of how it was undertaken, the speed of the process (with only four working days between signing and ratification) and without parliamentary oversight or transparency. Three parliamentary committees on foreign policy and national security did not support the treaty.

Yanukovych might have been able to convince parliament to vote for a five year extension, as stipulated in Ukraine’s constitution, but not a thirty year transfer of Sevastopol to Russia. As Marples wrote in the Kyiv Post (26 April), ‘Yanukovych manifestly failed to negotiate on Ukraine's behalf. It is inconceivable why his starting point was not a five-year extension of the existing lease, which was stipulated as an option according to the 1997 agreement’.

Crossing further ‘red lines’ are inevitable. Yanukovych’s denial of the 1933 famine as a ‘genocide’ during his PACE speech on the same day as the Black Sea Fleet ratification was, ‘like pouring oil on an already simmering fire in Ukraine’s polarized politics’, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs David Kramer wrote in the Kyiv Post (28 April). The Party of Regions and Communist Party of Ukraine did not vote for the October 2006 law on the Ukrainian famine and have pledged to over-turn the law in parliament.

Conclusion

Is the Yanukovych administrations strategy to deliberately provoke violence and civil conflict in order to use this as an excuse for a crackdown on the opposition? Or, on the other hand, does the Yanukovych administration still does not understand that an explosion is possible by provoking violence and conflict unintentionally or, possibly, as part of an undisclosed game plan. The administration could be very well duped by its own failure to understand the popular and spontaneous (rather than organized and pre-planned) Orange Revolution or it could be simply counting on public apathy in politics that has led to a commonly held view of a ‘plague on all your houses’.

The Yanukovych administration could misjudge the popular mood by believing he will be faced by the apathetic 1990s in Ukraine rather than the mass opposition protests of 2000-2004. In mistakenly betting on apathy the authorities could unleash civil strife and political instability.

The 2004 Orange Revolution and Yushchenko’s election was meant to have transformed Ukraine but failed to do so. Today, many events look like déjà vu taken from Kuchma’s second term in office when Ukraine faced years of political instability. Yanukovych is already described as a ‘new dictator’ (shadow Prime Minister Serhiy Sobolyev) and the Yanukovych regime as a ‘return to Kuchmizm’ (Tymoshenko) and ‘totalitarianism’ (Yushchenko). Tymoshenko’s formation of Committee’s in Defence of Ukraine following the 26 April parliamentary riots bring back memories of her establishment of the Forum for National Salvation in February 2001 that united those in opposition to President Kuchma.

The first 100 days of the Yanukovych administration point to two conclusions. Before Ukraine can ever move forward it first needs to deal with its past and arrive at a consensus on national integration. National consensus cannot be imposed by either Lviv or Donetsk but has to be built around Kyiv. Peru, which experienced a similar tape scandal in the same year as Ukraine (2000), dealt with its scandal by indicting and eventually putting in prison the head of the intelligence services and other senior officials followed by former President Alberto Fujimoro after he returned from exile in Japan. Ukraine’s ruling elites have never been indicted for anything undertaken since the USSR disintegrated – the only ones to have gone to prison have been in Germany and the US.

Yushchenko failed to understand the need to deal with Ukraine’s past or how to integrate Ukraine and to follow through on pursuing criminal charges against the elites who had murdered journalists, abused their positions of power through massive corruption and theft of state property and organized mass election fraud. Today, Ukraine is feeling the consequences of the failure of the Yushchenko administration to deliver the promises of the Orange Revolution.


Edited by StuartK (09/06/10 11:08 PM)

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#352475 - 09/06/10 11:28 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
Quote:
I am not sure what assertions I am making with no basis.


This

Quote:
I apologize that politics enters into questions of religion and "Church News", but this is certainly the case in Russia as Stuart I believe has mentioned (caesaropapism). There is no clear border.


and

Quote:
Should the Church support wholeheartedly the policies advocated by such a state. For instance, a Russian cabinet minister responsible for health in Russia just proclaimed that Russians should drink and smoke more, to help out the economy. For real. Has the Church no power to speak out against such inept and immoral advice from above? Or should the church itself become involved in the tobacco trade?


You're more or less asserting the church is complicit in whatever the Russian government does that you feel is wrong (because there is no clear border between the two), and has no power to speak on issues or morality. It just follows along with whatever the government wishes.

You're painting an entire church with a broad brush.


Edited by AMM (09/06/10 11:30 PM)

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#352477 - 09/06/10 11:54 PM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: StuartK]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Thanks Stuart for the article. Taras Kuzio is usually quite on the mark when it comes to Ukrainian affairs. He saw the writing on the wall about Yanukovych before the latter became President. Yanukovych only came to power because the hero of the Orange Revolution, Yushchenko, refused to back the main democratic candidate Tymoshenko. I saw Kuzio on television speaking at last month's Black Ribbon Conference at a Canadian University. Coincidentally, another speaker there by way of satellite was Russian politician Mr. Boris Nemstov whom I mentioned above.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/B...l#ixzz0xVNR0YpW

The problem with societies that put "Vertical Power" into practice with no checks and balances is that there is no independent judiciary to correct the breaking of the constitution by the President. So that the Donetsk coalition now governing Ukraine became a majority in Ukraine's parliament by taking deputies who won under "party sheets" for other democratic parties "over" to the Regions Party. This transfer of deputies elected to one party and joining another is strictly prohibited under the Ukrainian constitution. Do you think the Ukrainian Supreme Court upheld the constitution on this? No. And thus you have a Regions majority in parliament with many Ukrainians saying there is a going price for each seat. (David Aranovitch of the Times said looking at the Ukrainian Parliament's parking lot was like staring at an expensive Mercedes-Benz autoshow).

My comments in my above posts were aimed more at the Russian government than the Russian Orthodox Church, and I apologize if any were offended. I was merely asking what role the ROC could/should take in regards to what in my view is Putin's state and the lack of any controlling force to authoritarianism which would ensure freedom of assembly, rule of law, etc. in Russia. I was in agreement with what Stuart had written earlier about "velvet shackles".

The concept of the "Power Vertical" in Russia is followed quite assiduously be these two from Radio Free Europe who follow Russia.
http://www.rferl.org/archive/The_Power_Vertical/latest/884/884.html

Again, my concerns were with the question of basic human rights in Putin's Russia, and now Yanukovych's Ukraine, and what, if any, relationship the Church should have if the ruler practices authoritarianism. I believe Putin and increasingly Yanukovych are authoritarian rulers. My concern is with what ultimately happens to religious justice in such states, a case in point being the Ukrainian Catholics in Odesa being denied a church.

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#352478 - 09/07/10 12:01 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: AMM]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: AMM
[quote]

You're more or less asserting the church is complicit in whatever the Russian government does that you feel is wrong (because there is no clear border between the two), and has no power to speak on issues or morality. It just follows along with whatever the government wishes.

You're painting an entire church with a broad brush.


I realize I should have been more careful in my choice of words (I even got the minister wrong), as after my edit time was up I realized this could be the impression. I hold the ROC complicit in nothing. My point was hoping on such issues it would stand up to any errant minister in Putin's cabinet advocating consumption, and standing up to Putin if peoples' human rights to freedom of assembly, protection under the law fall by the wayside. (last week's Sunday show on CNN with Fareed Zakaria had an incredibly interesting interview about what befell one Russian lawyer attempting to uphold the rule of law in Russia - I think you can watch it on CNN/GPS if you're interested). I shall attempt to be more careful in my painting from now on, though I am beginning to think this should be my last post on this thread in the interests of my own spiritual health.

My apologies and I do hate looking back at my posts if I am emotional. I just wanted to hear your personal views on whether Ukrainian Catholics were entitled to a church in the Odesa oblast.

God Bless.



Edited by Vladzyunyu (09/07/10 12:03 AM)

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#352480 - 09/07/10 12:09 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
I believe in freedom of religion; whether that's in Odessa, Kiev, New York or Riyadh. Suppression ennobles no one.

I have no idea why Yanukovych was so unacceptable to us in 2004, but his election now passes almost without note or concern. I disagree deeply with a number of things in regards to the Russian Federation. I disagree deeply with a number of things in regards to the United States. I place no faith in government to act in the interest of religion.

I would be wary of getting close to any side or party in Ukraine in regards to politics.

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#352481 - 09/07/10 12:12 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: AMM]
Vladzyunyu Offline
Member

Registered: 04/25/10
Posts: 58
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: AMM
I believe in freedom of religion; whether that's in Odessa, Kiev, New York or Riyadh. Suppression ennobles no one.

I have no idea why Yanukovych was so unacceptable to us in 2004, but his election now passes almost without note or concern. I disagree deeply with a number of things in regards to the Russian Federation. I disagree deeply with a number of things in regards to the United States. I place no faith in government to act in the interest of religion.

I would be wary of getting close to any side or party in Ukraine in regards to politics.


Thanks AMM for your honesty. Perhaps my post above was my second last on this thread.

God Bless.

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#352489 - 09/07/10 12:37 AM Re: Moscow Patriarchate denies Ukrainian Catholics any Churchin Odesa [Re: Vladzyunyu]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: AMM
I believe in freedom of religion; whether that's in Odessa, Kiev, New York or Riyadh. Suppression ennobles no one.


Well said, my friend. A sentiment on which we all should meditate and on which I would hope all would agree. Those who cannot do so might do well to think on the oft-quoted words of Pastor Martin Niemoller, of blessed memory. The text is quoted in a variety of forms, but the point remains the same. A version:

Quote:
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me.


On that note, I believe this topic has exhausted itself. The thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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