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Originally Posted by DTBrown
I doubt they were generally perceived by the other Churches as an affirmation of the sacraments that had been received in the other Church before one became a Catholic.
That may be, but the concept is really not that difficult to grasp.

Originally Posted by DTBrown
Is the judgment really that one had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism from another Christian faith? I don't think so. I think many Orthodox converts would disagree with you there.
I can't say "had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism" but I can say "no Christian" and that is the issue. There is the death in Christ and the rebirth or there is not, the putting on of Christ, real, ontological; and if so, then not to be repeated.

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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by DTBrown
Is the judgment really that one had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism from another Christian faith? I don't think so. I think many Orthodox converts would disagree with you there.
I can't say "had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism" but I can say "no Christian" and that is the issue. There is the death in Christ and the rebirth or there is not, the putting on of Christ, real, ontological; and if so, then not to be repeated.

How real is the difference between "no Christian experience" and "no Christian"?

In hard cases, isn't it up to God to decide?

There are times we leave it in the hands of the Church to decide what we should do. In past generations Catholics followed the policy of almost always baptizing converts from other Christian faiths conditionally. Now, that's pretty rare.

Many years ago, a remarried person entering the Catholic Church often had a hard time getting an annulment. That resulted in difficult situations for some. Now, many of these people are able to obtain an annulment and receive the Eucharist. Some people criticize this and some are grateful for it.

I think in all these hard type cases we are often called to submit to the authority we recognize and leave the judging to God.

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As a former Orthodox Christian who was raised in a Catholic country and who has recently left Eastern Orthodoxy for the Traditional Catholic faith, I greatly lament that the fact that this priest decided to go into schism and leave the Church of Jesus Christ.

To say that "we are all expected to become Orthodox" is not at all consistent with the lives of those Catholic martyrs who chose horrendous deaths instead of becoming part of the Communist controled Orthodox Churches.

The fact that so many people leave the Catholic Church for Eastern Orthodoxy is nothing but a fruit of Ecumenism as practiced by the liberal hierarchy in Rome and in most of the dioceses in the world.

The Ecumenist clergy act as if the Catholic Church needed some form of "approval" from schismatic Churches. It's pitiful to see the once glorious Catholic Church begging schismatic Anti-Roman bishops to "recognize the Catholic Baptism" of those who leave the Church of Christ to join their organizations. It's sad to see the Catholic Church in such a defensive position.

Instead of kneeling before the Orthodox for the sake of Rome's false Ecumenism, Catholics should instead work for the conversion of souls. There are so many people of good faith among the Orthodox who would convert to the Catholic Church if they were approcahed with a truly traditional liturgy and a sound catechism.

Many Catholics who convert to the Orthodox Church do so because the hierarchs of the Catholic Church no longer preach that the Catholic Church is the true Church. If someone is told things are better the other side of the fence and people tell this person "we must be like those who live the other side of the fence because they're better than ourselves", it's evident that at some point this person will jump and reach the other side of the fence as it's much easier than waiting until things get better on our side.

The sollution would be to create Traditional organizations and societies of Eastern Christians in order to defend the true Eastern heritage and the Catholic faith. It's our duty to oppose the hostility of the Orthodox clergy against Catholics and to promote the truth.

It's certainly true that the Orthodox Churches have no liturgical problems, that you will never find liturgical abuse, that all priests will be traditional, that you won't find corruption. However, these Orthodox bodies and their bishops (who occupy these once Catholic dioceses) have no affiliation with the Church of Christ, they have no authority from God. If these Churches hold so many truths of the faith and the true mysteries it is because they took them from the unidivided Church. The fact that these organizations have been prudent enough to preserve the holy mysteries that they took from the Catholic Church (while the Protestants, on the other side, lost them) does not make them venerable at all.

What they have is a purely material apostolic succession. There is no apostolic mission in them, and no authority from God.

The sollution is not to join the Orthodox Churches but to resist Modernism, to defend the Eastern tradition from Latinization and Novus Ordization, to ask for true orthodoxy and true catholicism, to ressist and oppose the political attacks of the State Orthodox Churches.

This is my personal opinion.

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Irish Melkite's post on the different sacramental approaches of East and West is helpful, and should probably be reviewed by all those taking part in this discussion:

Here is a link to his most recent posting on the topic:

Augustinian versus Cyrianic Sacramentology

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Originally Posted by Luvr of East
...are you saying that the Orthodox are not part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church? That is how I am understanding your statement and just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly or if I am misunderstanding your statement.

Hola Manuel,

It is not my saying but the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Please read the following:

Responses to Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church [vatican.va]

and

Note on the expression "Sister Churches" [ewtn.com]

Please let me know your reaction after you have read them.

God bless,

griego




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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
It saddens me whenever I learn the news about a Byzantine Catholic priest becoming Eastern Orthodox. The last one that I am aware of was Fr. George Maloney,SJ whom I served with at a Divine Liturgy years ago.

Why does it sadden you? We are all destined to become Orthodox, some day, and if a priest or layman feels he can no longer live the fullness of the Orthodox Tradition in the Greek Catholic Church, then he should enter into the Orthodox Church in order to do so. Insofar as both the Catholic and Orthodox communions possess the fullness of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, what matters where one stands?

Have you read Dominus Iesus [vatican.va] lately?

It states:
Quote
16...The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: “This is the single Church of Christ... which our Saviour, after his resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care (cf. Jn 21:17), commissioning him and the other Apostles to extend and rule her (cf. Mt 28:18ff.), erected for all ages as ‘the pillar and mainstay of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15). This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in [subsistit in] the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”.54 With the expression subsistit in, the Second Vatican Council sought to harmonize two doctrinal statements: on the one hand, that the Church of Christ, despite the divisions which exist among Christians, continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church, and on the other hand, that “outside of her structure, many elements can be found of sanctification and truth”,55 that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church.56 But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.57

17. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

The Eastern churches not in communion with Rome do not have the fullness of the Christian faith because they deny the universal primacy of the Pope of Rome which has been revealed by God through His Church.

It is erroneous then to say and believe that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches compose the one Church of Christ. As it states the Church of Christ "continues to exist fully only in the Catholic Church".

One need only read the lives of our holy martyrs Theodore Romzha, Leonid Feodorov, Nicholas Charnetsky, the Martyrs of Pratulin, Josaphat Kuntsevych, etc. to see that they believed to the point of shedding their blood in the fullness of the Catholic faith.

Read this and tell if this group of Catholics are living the fullness of the faith.
http://marymagdalen.blogspot.com/2010/09/redemptorist-publications-promote.html

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Quote from Mexican: "It's certainly true that the Orthodox Churches have no liturgical problems, that you will never find liturgical abuse, that all priests will be traditional, that you won't find corruption."

Maybe that is part of the problem!. Why so many Eastern Catholics return to their mother churches!.

Quote from Mexican: "If these Churches hold so many truths of the faith and the true mysteries it is because they took them from the unidivided Church."

Truths that most, in the undivided church, fail to retain, for the sake of modernism!. The Roman Rite also suffers the same problems, if not more. Novus Ordo Catholicism vs Traditional Catholicism.

We shouldn't judge others when we ourselves do not provide a good example to follow by. How many Roman Rite clergy follow Pope Benedict XVI's liturgical examples. Not many!.

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Quote from Mexican: "Instead of kneeling before the Orthodox for the sake of Rome's false Ecumenism, Catholics should instead work for the conversion of souls. There are so many people of good faith among the Orthodox who would convert to the Catholic Church if they were approcahed with a truly traditional liturgy and a sound catechism."

But until that day comes, and it won't be for along time, they will remain Orthodox. And judging from most European Catholics, and their liberal philosophies, it will be centuries. Maybe the Pope sees something in the Orthodox that he wishes he would see in his own Church. Which yes is right now more divided than ever, thanks to secularization and modernism.

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The Pope in his latest discussions at Castle Gandolfo, with his former students, Koch and Schonborn, spoke of trying to avoid a schism between Pre-Conciliar Roman Catholics, and Post Conciliar Roman Catholics. And this wasn't just about the SSPX.

So as the first response went.
"May God grant Father Gabriel many years."

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I wish the Catholic Church could have Metropolitans and Archbishops, as young as Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk. Than we might have more traditional parishes, instead of parishes run by the 60's generation. Just my opinion!.

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Originally Posted by Luvr of East
And the 50 year change about the RC I imagine is something that happened post Vatican II eh.

Manuel,

Actually 50 years would be just prior to VII (1962-65). Post VII, conditional baptism was much less likely to happen.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Originally Posted by Mexican
The sollution is not to join the Orthodox Churches but to resist Modernism, to defend the Eastern tradition from Latinization and Novus Ordization, to ask for true orthodoxy and true catholicism, to ressist and oppose the political attacks of the State Orthodox Churches.

Bravo to this brave post.

As a side note, I would add nationalism to the list of problems you cite. My UGCC parish glorifies God in a remarkably beautiful way, and other people are closed to it because it isn't "American." On the other side, it appears that the Eastern churches may eventually subdivide themselves out of existence because of nationalism.

Back to the main topic, it seems to me that all of us, Catholic and Orthodox, should pray for Christian unity, the conversion of sinners, the total triumph of the church on earth, and the growth and success of our ritual traditions and all ritual traditions that give glory to God. Then we know with confidence that God will answer our prayers, although maybe not in the ways we thought.

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Originally Posted by DTBrown
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by DTBrown
Is the judgment really that one had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism from another Christian faith? I don't think so. I think many Orthodox converts would disagree with you there.
I can't say "had no Christian experience if one is received by Baptism" but I can say "no Christian" and that is the issue. There is the death in Christ and the rebirth or there is not, the putting on of Christ, real, ontological; and if so, then not to be repeated.

How real is the difference between "no Christian experience" and "no Christian"?
A difference of some experience. But the difference addressed was between being baptized and not being baptized; and that is a BIG difference.

Originally Posted by DTBrown
In hard cases, isn't it up to God to decide?
God is not limited by the sacraments, but God, Jesus, gave authority to the Church -- the keys, binding and loosing, to Peter.

Originally Posted by DTBrown
There are times we leave it in the hands of the Church to decide what we should do.
Of course, but I would expect a consistent practice, or the intent and desire to do so, that reflects the proper theology.

Originally Posted by DTBrown
In past generations Catholics followed the policy of almost always baptizing converts from other Christian faiths conditionally. Now, that's pretty rare.
Better practices, or practices that change with times, sure. The point is that the "conditionally" even if invoked too scrupulously, is the right theology and looms large.

Originally Posted by DTBrown
Many years ago, a remarried person entering the Catholic Church often had a hard time getting an annulment. That resulted in difficult situations for some. Now, many of these people are able to obtain an annulment and receive the Eucharist. Some people criticize this and some are grateful for it.
See my previous three remarks.

Originally Posted by DTBrown
I think in all these hard type cases we are often called to submit to the authority we recognize and leave the judging to God.
We definitely "submit to the authority we recognize." My issue with what has been put forth in past threads as what I would characterize as the Cyprianic-economia theory is how it works out in practice. Using the case of the Catholic priest being received by vesting: let's say an RC priest and his twin layman brother, both having been baptized Catholic, same time, same priest baptizing, yet the priest-brother is received by vesting, but the layman-brother is received by baptism/chrismation. What does this practice say about the necessity of baptism and that it can only be done once and it is sacrilegious to try to repeat it? So theory is fine and may be readily stated but the proof in many cases is in the practice and results or ramifications of the practice.

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May God grant Father Gabriel many years.

Amin.

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Many years to Fr. Gabriel.

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