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Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
AMM #353080 09/16/10 09:49 AM
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My response to the question "so is this post simply wrong?" is to refer to the slogan of Forum 18, in which is is implied that everyone has:
-the right to believe, to worship and witness;
-the right to change one's belief or religion (that includes Russian Orthodox who voluntarily and out of conviction choose to join the Latin Church) and
-the right to join together and express one's belief.

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
sielos ilgesys #353089 09/16/10 01:50 PM
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I am not at all question religious freedom. I was asking if

Quote
When will we finally realize that the Orthodox Church IS the Catholic Church in Russia? (The question of ministering to ex-pat Poles, Lithuanians et al. according to their own rite is quite another matter, as is the situation with Ukrainian Greek Catholics.) Proselytism is never the solution no matter how desperate the situation on the ground - that only makes the proselytism opportunistic!


Is correct or not.

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
AMM #353099 09/16/10 04:01 PM
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I won't answer for sielos, and maybe he has a different opinion, but I think Ot'ets' statement is way off the mark. The Orthodox Church isn't the Catholic Church in Russia - the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church in Russia. Good heavens.

And may I add that frankly it sometimes comes off that the people insisting upon what I admittedly consider to be a tribal, simplistic, and outdated view of "Church territory" are insisting upon it because their own Church is being "outdone" in terms of evangelization. It just kind of seems like a sore loser approach. Instead, maybe the answer should be a stronger or more successful evangelization on the part of the Sore Loser Church, which ever that is, according to the situation. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks the view that Catholics can't evangelize in Vladivostok or that Orthodox can't evangelize in Paris is somewhat untenable and unsuited for the modern world, where the reach of every Church seeking to evangelize should, in my opinion, be global.

Alexis

Last edited by Logos - Alexis; 09/16/10 04:09 PM.
Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
Logos - Alexis #353101 09/16/10 05:01 PM
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So competition is good?

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
AMM #353107 09/16/10 05:36 PM
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Along with the orphanage, attempting to reach out to the unbaptized (a sizeable population in this part of the RF) is a major part of their apostolate. Sister Maria Stella is a family friend of ours. They will also hopefully be working to assist in facilitating contacts between Greek Catholics and available clergy in ministering to them as well.

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
Diak #353111 09/16/10 07:10 PM
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AMM,

Perhaps I am so thoroughly Americanized as to think a free-market approach will best serve both the unevangelized, the quasi-evangelized, and the Churches themselves. wink

Alexis

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
Logos - Alexis #353118 09/16/10 08:58 PM
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Do you think this has the potential to confirm the fears of those already pre-disposed to assume the worst? At the very least, don't you think this presents a confusing message?

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
... Proselytism is never the solution no matter how desperate the situation on the ground - that only makes the proselytism opportunistic!


It's important to be clear about what we mean by "proselytism." Most of us in this forum would agree that for RCs to go to Russia and try to induce the Orthodox faithful to convert to Catholicism would be wrong on several counts. However, this can hardly be equated with the offering of services to those in need, even if the need is for Baptism. To say that these needs should go unmet simply because there is no RO priest or volunteers available would seem to be an indication of confused thinking.

That said, I would love to see a mission like this become an example of cooperation between the RCC and ROC at the ground level. It's at the ground level that schisms get healed!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
AMM #353126 09/17/10 12:21 AM
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What's incorrect is the assertion that the Orthodox Church is the Catholic Church in Russia.

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
sielos ilgesys #353134 09/17/10 11:19 AM
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How about the RCC and ROC just keep fighting and let the Pentecostals, Baptists, SDA, Mormons, and JW's come in and evangelize for them?

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
John K #353136 09/17/10 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by John K
How about the RCC and ROC just keep fighting and let the Pentecostals, Baptists, SDA, Mormons, and JW's come in and evangelize for them?


It has been stated more than once in this thread that competition is good. I would assume then the more competition, the better.

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
AMM #353141 09/17/10 01:57 PM
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I for one, think that competition is horrible. If we, as Orthodox and Catholic Christians, are unable to work together for the salvation of souls, despite our Ecclesial differences, then I fear my friends that any "evangelization" we do will be done in vain (at least in this circumstance).


Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
sielos ilgesys #353148 09/17/10 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
Russian Orthodox folks I know would be mighty surprised to discover they were actually Catholics.


Correction, the folks in Russia as well as other Orthodox countries ARE actually Catholics.

We are the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which lacks nothing before the eyes of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.

I also wonder how the Roman Church would feel about Orthodox missionaries trying to "evangelize" France, Italy, Spain and other post-Christian countries in Europe which "used to be" Roman Catholic.

Want to really evangelize?

Go to Saudi Arabia.


Last edited by Deacon Borislav; 09/17/10 04:04 PM.
Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
Father Borislav #353160 09/17/10 11:24 PM
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Go to Saudi Arabia.


No thanks. I need a place to hang my hat.

Re: To Russia With Nuns...Re-Evangelize Vladivostok
Father Borislav #353166 09/18/10 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Deacon Borislav
Correction, the folks in Russia as well as other Orthodox countries ARE actually Catholics.


Deacon Borislav, obviously we believe this, but clearly others here do not. It is confusing, because there seem to be conflicting messages about how close they regard us as being to them, but then on the other hand they regard not as a fully catholic church and as a potential competitor in the mission field. It's hard for me not to see that whatever good work is being done, it is not essentially an endeavor of proselytism in a traditionally Orthodox country. I can also find nothing about only reaching out to the unbaptized, despite repeated mention of that here. This all certainly helps me understand why the Moscow Patriarchate is extremely careful in its relations.

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