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#353670 - 09/28/10 03:33 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: AMM]
StuartK Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Oh, yeah--Russia is threatened by Ukraine, and Poland, and Lativia, Estonia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Belarus (!) and, of course, Georgia. Poor, downtrodden Russia, surrounded by hostile superpowers itching to march on Moscow.

The real truth is Russia's body image is out of whack with its actual appearance, and, like all who suffer from a grave inferiority complex, Russia has a chip on its shoulder.

At times like these, it is good to remember that Russia is merely New Jersey with 2000 nuclear weapons.

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#353672 - 09/28/10 03:47 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: StuartK]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
Good thing we have no concept of spheres of influence.

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#353674 - 09/28/10 03:56 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: AMM]
PeterPeter Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
I think it was Comrade Trotsky who said that the natural border of Russia is the English Channel.

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#353675 - 09/28/10 04:13 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: PeterPeter]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
PeterPeter, what was the perceived threat the Ukrainians represented to the Poles in the 40's?

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#353677 - 09/28/10 04:31 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: AMM]
PeterPeter Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
There was insurgency going on, but not only on the side of Ukrainians, also the remnants of the non-communist Polish army weren't eager to surrender. The new regime was trying hard to establish itself.

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#353680 - 09/28/10 04:42 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: PeterPeter]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
What was/is the position of the Latin Rite hierarchy in Poland in relation to the UGCC?

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#353699 - 09/29/10 02:40 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: AMM]
PeterPeter Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
Minorities in Poland were suppressed during the Communist period, there was strong pressure on ethnic uniformity, the authorities were unwilling to recognize the existence of Ukrainians, Germans, Kashubians etc. in their real extent in Poland.

Situation of the UGCC was a derivative of this circumstances. The Latin Rite hierarchy had enough its own problems with the Communists, so they were generally unwilling to take risks for the Ukrainians (though UGCC ministry existed), maybe except for allowing formation of Ukrainian clerics in the Catholic University of Lublin (which was convenient for the secret services, as they could have an eye on them).

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#353702 - 09/29/10 05:59 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: PeterPeter]
StuartK Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
To be brutally honest, this was true of Poland between the World Wars, too.

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#353715 - 09/29/10 08:58 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: StuartK]
PeterPeter Offline
Member

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 274
Loc: PL
The colonels' attempts to suppress nationalist movements before WW2 failed miserably, the communists succeeded. I am not aware of existence of any Ukrainian schools or dedicated UGCC-only churches during the communist period (though I'm not expert on the topic). The ministry (tiny as it was) was either in borrowed Latin chapels (when there was a brave and sympathetic pastor, which didn't happen often) or just saecular premises. The communists preferred the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church, whose head, Archbishop Sawa, was secret collaborator of the communist secret services (he admitted that). It has lead to some conflicts about ownership of the churches, but it has never reached large scale.

My impression is that the Polish Autonomous Orthodox Church is rather pro-Russian (I get that impression from reading the "Orthodox Review" occassionally).

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#353716 - 09/29/10 09:00 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: PeterPeter]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
PeterPeter, why did non acceptance of minorities move to outright violence after the war? Was it simply a reaction to the actions of the UPA?

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#353719 - 09/29/10 09:20 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: AMM]
sielos ilgesys Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1090
Loc: Texas/USA
Yes, indeed: watch out for Lithuania. It's such a dire threat to Russia...

I had a cousin in Montreal who (in the early 1970s) used to say the solution to Canada's language problems was drop both English and French and for the entire country to take up speaking Lithuanian. LOL

oops: I intended this to be in response to an earlier post by StuartK...


Edited by sielos ilgesys (09/29/10 09:22 AM)

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#353732 - 09/29/10 09:51 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: StuartK]
Two Lungs Offline
Member

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1919
Loc: Takoma Park, MD
Originally Posted By: StuartK
To be brutally honest, this was true of Poland between the World Wars, too.



Indeed, Metropolitan Andrei was arrested and held by the Polish government for a while.

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#353739 - 09/29/10 11:16 AM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: Two Lungs]
Fr Serge Keleher Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
Back to Odessa - I have had the experience of meeting the "canonical" Metropolitan Agafangel of Odessa and here and there, and of hearing him give a typical Soviet-style speech at a conference in Milan about 15 years ago (by which time the USSR no longer existed, but Agafangel probably hadn't noticed). A quite disgusting person - and that wasn't just my opinion. A number of genuinely Orthodox participants were disagreeably shocked.

Fr. Serge

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#354208 - 10/10/10 09:43 PM Re: Ukrainian Orthodox diocese "outraged" [Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3355
Loc: US
Metropolitan Hilarion talked about the situation in Odessa in a recent interview here.

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