This is sad! Where is the right to worship in Ukraine?

http://interfaxreli.customers.ru/?act=news&div=7740

27 September 2010
A Ukrainian diocese outraged with plans to build Uniate cathedral

Odessa, September 27, Interfax - The Odessa Diocese of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church believes there is no grounds for building a Greek Catholic cathedral in the city and such plans have aggressive political backgrounds.

"It's quite evident that there's no ground for building a Greek Catholic church in Odessa. Odessa is an Orthodox city," the diocesan secretary Archpriest Andrey Novikov told Interfax-Religion on Monday.

According to the priest, initiators of the building have their own aim - proselytism, converting Orthodox believers in Unia.

"There is no visible presence of Greek Catholics in Odessa. Whom uniate preachers are going to attract to their parish? Certainly Orthodox Odessites - they will try to catch them in networks of Unia through various intricacies," the interviewee of the agency said.

Fr. Andrey told about numerous addresses from the deputies, representatives of intellectual elite, ordinary residents of Odessa to the diocesan administration as they are outraged that the historic center of Odessa may have "a cathedral of the confession that blurred its history by cooperation with Nazi occupation regime, blessing of SS members and militants of the so-called "Ukrainian rebel army" generally known as Bandera nationalists."

The priest was also puzzled with Uniates' attempts to exaggerate number of their followers in Odessa. "If we speak seriously, then all "data" about numerous Greek Catholics living in Odessa are "pulled out of a hat," he said.

Fr. Andrey pointed not only to numerous proves of the eye-witnesses, but also to his personal experience.

"When I go to the service I drive near this (Uniate - IF) church. It is usually closed. On feast days there are several people, often Polish Catholic nuns who are evidently sent there to give an impression of a crowd. I was surprised to read an Internet interview with a "chancellor" of the Greek Catholic Diocese who shamelessly said that 300-400 people usually visit the church!" the priest said.

According to him, "such immodest lie in mass media offered by the person who consider himself a cleric, one more time proves that the Greek Catholic Church is not going to refuse the old, tested Jesuit slogan "the end justifies the means."

He also asked "experts" concerned "with supposed violations of UGCC rights" where they were when Greek Catholics crushed Western European dioceses of the Russian Orthodox Church" and "why these "advocates" of rights and freedoms keep silence today, when thousand believers of the canonical Church pray at the open air in Lvov as they are refused in any site for building an Orthodox cathedral."

Another outrageous example of the paranoia surrounding the proposed building of a Ukrainian Greek Catholic edifice in Odessa:
[Source - Religious Information Service of Ukraine - RISU]

Metropolitan of UOC-MP Believes Greek Catholics Have No Right to Have Church in Odesa
1 September 2010

"The Odesa Eparchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate published an official statement regarding the possibility of constructing a Greek Catholic church in Odesa. "In Odesa, where the vast majority of the residents are believers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, there is such a small number of Greek Catholics that there is no need to build not only a cathedral but even a prayer house for the Uniates," stated Metropolitan Ahafanhel (Savin) of Odesa and Izmail of the UOC, who is also a deputy of the Odesa Regional State Administration and a representative of the Party of Regions.

The statement reads that "the expected construction in Odesa, on the territory of the Prokhoriv Public Garden, of a cathedral of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is the Uniates' attempt to aggressive expand in the Odesa region."

According to the press service of the Odesa Eparchy of the UOC, the construction of a cathedral of the UGCC in the Orthodox city of Odesa will cause indignation and protest of the clergy and the Orthodox believers of the Odesa region, "will create in our peaceful city a situation of the interreligious conflict, will not be conducive to strengthening peace and social agreement in the Odesa region."

In the end, the statement reads that Metropolitan of Odesa of the UOC and the clergy of the Odesa Eparchy consider it unadvisable and very dangerous to construct a religious object "of Uniates in the capital of our region."

Further Information:
As of March 2010, there are 10,000 Greek Catholics in Odesa. In addition, according to the Chancellor of Odesa-Crimean Exarchate of the UGCC, Volodymyr Zhdan, there are several large Greek Catholic communities in Odesa Oblast, such as Ilichivska, Rozdilnianska, Berezovska, etc."

Yeah, well, I'm outraged by the Orthodox response to the proposed erection of a Greek Catholic church in Odessa.

And it's not like I haven't tried to comprehend the Orthodox viewpoint on the so-called Uniates. The tendency they often have, to regard our Church as completely illegitimate, also troubles me...but since when do we need validation from them?

What we REALLY need is mutual charity and respect for each others' distinctiveness and identity.

Where does this overly-defensive attitude of many Orthodox come from? "paranoid" is unfortunately the right word for it...

Well, whether we agree with them or not, certainly everyone enjoys the right to voice their opposition to any group or anybody they feel they're in opposition to. Sometimes that even means protesting to stop the erection of an edifice. That certainly happens here in the U.S.

It is up to the government of Ukraine to safeguard the individual rights of its citizens.

Good luck with that.

Well, we had our go at engineering a political revolution in 2004 which ended up failing, and we basically silently accepted that Yanukovych is back. So I'm not sure what moral high ground we're on.



It would be easier to write this off as paranoia if it weren't for things like this

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads...vang#Post352863

In that thread it was stated multiple times that competition for believers is good, and there is no issue with that happening in Russia.

What should be clear to anyone, is this is as much about nationality and politics as anything else. That is clear in the reference to the UPA in the news story referenced. You also have to understand the Metropolitan of Odessa is extremely conservative, and they simply don't look at the world the way we in the West do.

How is operating a small orphanage in Vladivostok (not even in the same continent) and ministering to an ever-growing unbaptized population related to this situation in Odessa, where the LDS and Evangelicals can proselytize (for which, by the way, the Metropolitan is silent) when an ancient church cannot even minister to its own people who are known to live there in established communities? If he were truly "conservative", any incursion of a non-Apostolic church would or should invoke a similar level of umbrage, but does not.

Because they're both part of the Moscow Patriarchate, and all of these issues are interrelated. You can't write their viewpoint off as simply "paranoia". Raising a metropolitan cathedral in Kyiv is an affront to them, for obvious historical, political and ethnic reasons. I am making making no value judgment on this, simply pointing out this is a fact having to do with their viewpoint. The fact that the West became involved in Ukrainian politics and attempted to re-orient Ukraine is simply another issue mixed in. The UPA was raised because there is still bad blood over that. There are of course counter arguments and viewpoints on all of these issues. It's not black and white.



Are you absolutely sure he, or other members of the MP in Ukraine, are silent in reference to these groups?



The conservative view does not acknowledge there are various apostolic churches as we know. The same view would of course not see the UGCC as an ancient apostolic church either. *I am not* endorsing that view, or even taking the side of the MP here. I also said in the last thread on this whole topic I support absolute freedom of conscience in worship and that politics and religion together are poison.

I read both Russian and Ukrainian, and try to keep up with the statements from all "sides", but I don't see anything to counterbalance to the seemingly directed polemic against the UGCC. The UGCC has had communities in the area since the Union (although suppressed throughout the Imperial time) and the UGCC population has more recently increased in size and organization due to Soviet military industry in the 1950s through the 1980s. Having contact with some of our clergy and faithful in that region, there has been no apparent statements from the Metropolitan regarding any other "prosleytizing" from sects who are openly proselytizing, such as those I previously mentioned. We are not left with much other conclusion than it is specifically directed at the UGCC.


Hmm. How many Orthodox parishes have opened in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, South America, etc. without directed public polemic from the Roman authorities regarding their presence? It is paranoia, or perhaps the relics of romaticization over a Church that the MP once thought it controlled.

That probably is the case then. History has lined up in a way to make this a political/religious/etnic confrontation; and that is what is unfolding in Ukraine.



Because right or wrong, they (the Roman authorities) don't see this as a challenge to their culture and nationality ; and right or wrong the MP does. At one time, not that long ago in history, both sides would have approached the matter the way those in question in Odessa are now. We always have to keep in perspective that our values of freedom of conscience, multiculturalism, etc. are not values that sprang from the apostolic church; and at times that church has strenuously resisted, refuted and denied these values.

I don't see a lot of black and white in Ukraine. Everybody here does though.

Well, yeah. Some things are right and some things are wrong. Freedom of conscience is right. Suppression of religion is wrong. Paranoia is unhealthy in all cases, and Slavs of all stripes have it in spades, but Russians more than most. Which is why their attempt to subvert Ukraine is both alarming and reprehensible.

Sure, we just need to acknowledge both churches at one time had the equation flipped; and our own support of these points has nothing to do with the apostolic tradition. In fact it basically stands in opposition to it. Odessa just hasn't caught up to the modern world. What tells us this is "right" is a product of the Enlightenment and our secular value system.



As were our attempts to subvert Ukraine for our own purposes.

The Russians aren't paranoid, they just don't want to share power with a foreign-controlled (and foreign-supported) entity, particularly when this entity has a long tradition of supporting separate Ukrainian national identity.

Because the Orthodox have erected canonical Eparchies in Italy, with own clergy, bishops and church-buildings (usually provided by Catholic dioceses), they should be ashamed of this Odessa statement.

Exactly, that is what I have been trying to get at.

Oh, yeah--Russia is threatened by Ukraine, and Poland, and Lativia, Estonia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Belarus (!) and, of course, Georgia. Poor, downtrodden Russia, surrounded by hostile superpowers itching to march on Moscow.

The real truth is Russia's body image is out of whack with its actual appearance, and, like all who suffer from a grave inferiority complex, Russia has a chip on its shoulder.

At times like these, it is good to remember that Russia is merely New Jersey with 2000 nuclear weapons.

Good thing we have no concept of spheres of influence.

I think it was Comrade Trotsky who said that the natural border of Russia is the English Channel.

PeterPeter, what was the perceived threat the Ukrainians represented to the Poles in the 40's?

There was insurgency going on, but not only on the side of Ukrainians, also the remnants of the non-communist Polish army weren't eager to surrender. The new regime was trying hard to establish itself.

What was/is the position of the Latin Rite hierarchy in Poland in relation to the UGCC?

Minorities in Poland were suppressed during the Communist period, there was strong pressure on ethnic uniformity, the authorities were unwilling to recognize the existence of Ukrainians, Germans, Kashubians etc. in their real extent in Poland.

Situation of the UGCC was a derivative of this circumstances. The Latin Rite hierarchy had enough its own problems with the Communists, so they were generally unwilling to take risks for the Ukrainians (though UGCC ministry existed), maybe except for allowing formation of Ukrainian clerics in the Catholic University of Lublin (which was convenient for the secret services, as they could have an eye on them).

To be brutally honest, this was true of Poland between the World Wars, too.

The colonels' attempts to suppress nationalist movements before WW2 failed miserably, the communists succeeded. I am not aware of existence of any Ukrainian schools or dedicated UGCC-only churches during the communist period (though I'm not expert on the topic). The ministry (tiny as it was) was either in borrowed Latin chapels (when there was a brave and sympathetic pastor, which didn't happen often) or just saecular premises. The communists preferred the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church, whose head, Archbishop Sawa, was secret collaborator of the communist secret services (he admitted that). It has lead to some conflicts about ownership of the churches, but it has never reached large scale.

My impression is that the Polish Autonomous Orthodox Church is rather pro-Russian (I get that impression from reading the "Orthodox Review" occassionally).

PeterPeter, why did non acceptance of minorities move to outright violence after the war? Was it simply a reaction to the actions of the UPA?

Yes, indeed: watch out for Lithuania. It's such a dire threat to Russia...

I had a cousin in Montreal who (in the early 1970s) used to say the solution to Canada's language problems was drop both English and French and for the entire country to take up speaking Lithuanian. LOL

oops: I intended this to be in response to an earlier post by StuartK...

Indeed, Metropolitan Andrei was arrested and held by the Polish government for a while.

Back to Odessa - I have had the experience of meeting the "canonical" Metropolitan Agafangel of Odessa and here and there, and of hearing him give a typical Soviet-style speech at a conference in Milan about 15 years ago (by which time the USSR no longer existed, but Agafangel probably hadn't noticed). A quite disgusting person - and that wasn't just my opinion. A number of genuinely Orthodox participants were disagreeably shocked.

Fr. Serge

Metropolitan Hilarion talked about the situation in Odessa in a recent interview here.