Newest Members
Vox Populi, Social_research, JGlennCee, bben15, Nadir5, Claisen, AgiosAnthrwpos, marti58, dia Christon salos, anticlimacus, SocietyOfStsP&A, Robert Pauly, RichE, Gene, erniedee1
4755 Registered Users
Who's Online
6 registered (JBenedict, Pani Rose, griego catolico, Epiphanius, Athanasius The L, DMD), 219 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Bishop Nicholas Samra & Deacon Candidates Visit OLPH, 6/2/13
Great and Holy Week Our Lady of Fatima SF
Blessing of Fr. Serge Keleher's tombstone. April 7, 2013
Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church
Holy Ghost Orthodox Church Phoenixville, PA
Forum Stats
4755 Members
26 Forums
31782 Topics
388583 Posts

Max Online: 2716 @ 06/07/12 04:10 PM
Page 10 of 20 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 19 20 >
Topic Options
#353986 - 10/02/10 12:19 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
AMM Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 3364
Loc: Etc
Quote:
Are babies born with original sin?


No.

Top
#353992 - 10/02/10 01:06 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6979
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
Yes, all are born into the state if original sin.


Define your terms.

Top
#353993 - 10/02/10 01:06 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6979
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
No.


You, too.

Top
#353994 - 10/02/10 01:10 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: StuartK]
danman916 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 463
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Quote:
Yes, all are born into the state if original sin.


Define your terms.


I can't cut and paste very easily on my iPhone, but I refer to the CCC 978, 1250, and 1263.

Top
#354005 - 10/02/10 02:32 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6979
Loc: Falls Church, VA
You'll have to speak to me in a language I understand. I don't speak CCC, and refuse to learn how.

Top
#354052 - 10/02/10 10:17 PM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: StuartK]
danman916 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 463
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: StuartK
You'll have to speak to me in a language I understand. I don't speak CCC, and refuse to learn how.
I don't understand. What's the problem with the Catechism. I referred to it as I did out of being brief since I'm not really at a pc where I can cut and paste and give explanation.

Top
#354061 - 10/03/10 02:15 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: AMM]
ByzBob Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
Originally Posted By: AMM
Quote:
Are babies born with original sin?


No.


Allow me to rephrase. Is it the Roman Catholic understanding that babies are born with original sin?

Top
#354064 - 10/03/10 02:40 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: danman916]
ByzBob Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
Originally Posted By: danman916
Bob,

Yes, all are born into the state if original sin. You shoul read the ITC document as it addresses all of these Church documents. I think it is worthwhile reading.


It is called equivocation. The ITC study on Limbo is neither a papal document, nor a magisterial document, but a modern theological exercise. I happen to agree that Limbo was bad doctrine, but its roots go deeper than the ICT documents admits. I believe that the Limbo is based on defined doctrines at the Second Council of Lyons, and the Council of Florence. If one accepts these definitions that Limbo is inevitable. If however, one if following the current trends in Rome then they will see that Rome is gradually letting go of the so-called defined dogmas of the later western councils. It just strikes me as odd that when the Revenna documents are discussed typically it is a well intentioned RC that points out that they aren’t official, or when the western councils are alluded to as general councils then we are asked to provide official quotes, documentation etc., But when it is a doctrine that they might not like so much, like Limbo, then any non-binding document will do.

Top
#354074 - 10/03/10 03:15 PM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1624
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: ByzBob
... I happen to agree that Limbo was bad doctrine, but its roots go deeper than the ICT documents admits. I believe that the Limbo is based on defined doctrines at the Second Council of Lyons, and the Council of Florence. If one accepts these definitions that Limbo is inevitable...


Originally Posted By: ByzBob
Originally Posted By: danman916

Unfortunately, many thought that Limbo was dogma too.


One can hardly blame for having thought Limbo was dogma, since it was taught at the Council of Florence.

Originally Posted By: Session 6—6 July 1439
...But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.
Limbo is "based on" and "taught at." But the councils never actually use the word "limbo" and if it were being dogmatized as such, it surely would have to be explicit.

Limbo should be seen as a concept broader than just the limbo of infants, and medieval theologians speculated concerning it in ways that were consistent with Scripture. Let's give them credit where due and even learn from them.

Quote:
Medieval theologians described the underworld ("hell", "hades", "infernum") as divided into four distinct parts: hell of the damned (which some call Gehenna), Purgatory, limbo of the fathers, and limbo of infants.
limbo

After all, from the Gospel itself:

RSV Luke 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom.

RSV Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

As to the details (with references) of who said what, how, and when, and what it means, I recommend this pdf: Point/Counterpoint: Is Limbo a Catholic Doctrine?

Also, in First Things: Antinomies of Limbo: Some Historical Milestones


Top
#354080 - 10/03/10 05:25 PM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ajk]
danman916 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 463
Loc: Illinois
Bob, the ITC didn't just decide to study the subject one day. JPII commissioned the study and It was published with the popes approval. The ITC is an official part of curia that helps inform the Church on theological issues. It has more importance than you are willing to give it and it specifically addresses the issues you raise here. You can dismiss it ifyou want as equivocation, but it is the most comprehensive theological study ever given to the subject.

Top
#354113 - 10/04/10 12:34 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: danman916]
ByzBob Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
Originally Posted By: danman916
You can dismiss it if you want as equivocation,


Thanks, I think I will.

In the Latin tradition it is taught that we are born with original sin. This teaching would have been well known by the council fathers at Florence. Thus, when they said, ... or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains," they understood to whom this teaching was directed (i.e. infants who died prior to baptism). To pretend otherwise is to read into history what you want it to say, rather than allowing it to speak for itself.

Top
#354126 - 10/04/10 03:12 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ajk]
ByzBob Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
Originally Posted By: ajk


As to the details (with references) of who said what, how, and when, and what it means, I recommend this pdf: Point/Counterpoint: Is Limbo a Catholic Doctrine?


Thanks for bringing Bob Sungenis into this discussion. Here is his pdf on the recent Catholic vs. Protestant debate on the Immaculate Conception - notice what he says about the Patristic witness for the doctrine:

http://www.catholicintl.com/articles/FerraraWhite_Debate_on_Immaculate_Conception.pdf

Top
#354150 - 10/04/10 05:08 AM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
ajk Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 1624
Loc: MD
Originally Posted By: ByzBob
Thanks for bringing Bob Sungenis into this discussion. Here is his pdf on the recent Catholic vs. Protestant debate on the Immaculate Conception - notice what he says about the Patristic witness for the doctrine:

http://www.catholicintl.com/articles/FerraraWhite_Debate_on_Immaculate_Conception.pdf
As a vignette illustrating his position -- that there is a Patristic witness for the Immaculate Conception -- I offer (from the article):
Quote:
As for the patristic evidence for the Immaculate Conception, all that the Catholic Church needs is one witness to show that the concept or doctrine existed during that time period. That’s not a hard task. Dr. White’s favorite Father, Athanasius, gives a strong indication he believed Mary to be without sin. He writes: “He took it [his
body] from a pure and unstained Virgin, who had not known man" (On the Incarnation of the Word, 8). Of course, Dr. White will argue that “pure and unstained” does not teach specifically that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, and he would be correct, but we don’t need to have it explicitly stated in order to conclude that Athanasius believed Mary to be without sin; and once we see that Athanasius regarded Mary as without sin, then we only need to use our reason to work backward to Mary’s conception and see the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. To even begin to refute this, Dr. White would have to show that it would be impossible for Athanasius to have believed that Mary was conceived without Original Sin, a formidable task indeed considering that he already accepted that she was sinless. Moreover, there are many other Fathers who made similar remarks about Mary. The Church, guided by the Holy Spirit to discern and evaluate these various statements, then makes its judgment on their value.

Top
#354165 - 10/09/10 07:49 PM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
griego catolico Online   content
Member

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1069
Loc: Sunny California
StuartK,

Regarding the posts about Psalm 51: 5 --Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me (King James version)-- that were deleted due to the problems with server, you stated that the translation is incorrect and that the word is sins not sin.

Well, I am looking right at the verse and it's sin. I can't find any King James translation that has the word in the plural.

Top
#354166 - 10/09/10 09:22 PM Re: Why is the Immaculate Conception considered Ex-Catherda? [Re: ByzBob]
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3985
Loc: Washington, PA
The Septuagint Psalter is correctly translated as sins.

"For behold, I was conceived in inquities, and in sins did my mother bear me." Psalter of the Seventy translated by Holy Transfiguration Monastery

"Behold, I was born in inquities and in sins my mother conceived me" Septuagint Psalter translated by Baron Jose DeVinck and Fr Leonidas Contos
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Top
Page 10 of 20 < 1 2 ... 8 9 10 11 12 ... 19 20 >



Moderator:  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2013. All rights reserved.