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Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Irish Melkite] #354374 10/13/10 08:34 AM
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Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Irish Melkite] #354428 10/13/10 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
I agree that the Pope should not be appointing Melkite Catholic bishops in the United States, in Canada, or anywhere else.

But have you read my post and understood my argument? I do not agree that the Melkite Patriarch and Synod should have universal jurisdiction. Greek Catholic Bishops in North America should be appointed by their own North American Patriarch and Synod of Bishops, not by Damascus. After all, Antioch has no more business appointing bishops in North America than Rome does.


LC,

How many North American Patriarchs would you have? 1 for the Latins, 1 for the Byzantines/Greeks (or 2 - 1 for those of the Slav Tradition and 1 for those of the Greek Tradition), 1 for the Alexandrians, 1 for the Armenians, 1 for the West Syriacs, 1 for the East Syriacs, and 1 for the Assyro-Chaldeans? I don't see that as workable.

Think of the disparities:

The Alexandrians have 5 formal parishes (3 Copt, 2 Ethiopian/Eritrean - those numbers include both the US and Canada) and a couple dozen E/E missions - the vast majority of which are unserved or significantly underserved. The E/E need an eparch, yes; a patriarch, no. The Copts need another parish, which might then justify an exarch - they have no need of a patriarch on the ground.

The Armenians have 7 US and 2 Canadian parishes. They have an eparch - it's what they need.

The Syriacs - who knows what they have; with all due respect, they need serious organizational skills applied to their eparchy.

As to the other non-Byzantines, their present organizational status is adequate, but they need the immediacy of support from their primatial hierarchs and synodal brethren - without the intervention of the Colonial Office.

As much as I believe the wisdom of the words written almost 4 decades ago by Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory - which serve as my signature - the appointment of a Byzantine patriarch - Slav and/or Greek - to superintend the 4 Byzantine Churches which presently have hierarchy in the US or Canada or the 2 which do not, is unworkable w/o seriously diluting some of unique liturgical or cultural praxis that marks each. (We've already observed the disappearance in the US of the Bielorussian GC and in Canada of the Russian GC, as well as the essential loss - as discernable separate worshipping entities of the Slovak GC - outside Canada - and the Hungarians and Croats - in the US).

And, NA aside, what of Oceania, South America, and Western Europe? The same issue exists for each of them, albeit on a smaller scale.

Rule from afar is not ideal, but - believe it or not - the average Melkite Catholic in the US believes and trusts in the ability of his Church's Patriarch and its Synod to effectively lead the Church, witness the refrain commonly heard - 'the head of our Church is HB Patriarch Gregory'. It's what they believe. We are not anywhere as big as the Latins - while an argument can be readily made that the Latin bureaucracy is overextended in trying to pick effective hierarchy for its myriad canonical jurisdictions spread across the world, such is not our issue. Ours is, at present, sufficiently small to allow its oversight to be effectively done from Antioch - would that we were so big that such were not true - we should only be so lucky (not because we want to be shed of Antioch, but because we'd love to have such numbers)!

Many years,

Neil



Neil,

I am familiar with most of your arguments, and I suppose you're right. After all you know the situation on the ground.

But what I see as a problem in North America is the almost endless multiplication of parallel jurisdictions (Byzantine, Ukrainian, Romanian, Melkite, Armenian, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankara, Syriac, Maronite, with more possibly on the way). This fragmentation cannot be good, cannot be sustainable in the long run. At least those churches which have common traditions might try to develop closer ties between themselves. Don't forget that one topic of this Synod is strengthening communion between the different Catholic Churches in the Middle East. The same may be necessary in the so-called diaspora.

Otherwise, Eastern Catholics will simply continue copying the divisions of the Orthodox Churches, divisions which the Orthodox themselves are now working hard to overcome in order to create a canonically and ecclesiologically sound structure for their Churches in America.

I think now that some of the existing frustrations have been aired at the Synod, the time has come to start thinking outside the box a little. If the present situation is unsatisfactory, what might be the way forward? And in thinking about this, I really believe one should try to avoid further fragmentation, and rather start thinking about how to achieve greater local unity.

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: ag_vn] #354429 10/13/10 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ag_vn

Thank you!

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Irish Melkite] #354430 10/13/10 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite

LC,

How many North American Patriarchs would you have? 1 for the Latins, 1 for the Byzantines/Greeks (or 2 - 1 for those of the Slav Tradition and 1 for those of the Greek Tradition), 1 for the Alexandrians, 1 for the Armenians, 1 for the West Syriacs, 1 for the East Syriacs, and 1 for the Assyro-Chaldeans? I don't see that as workable.

[...]

Neil,

I don't think there should be a Latin patriarch, because patriarchs aren't part of our tradition (yes, I know we have four titular patriarchs, but they are patriarchs in name only). Our tradition is that bishops were elected locally, e.g. by the cathedral chapter of canons as is still the case in the Diocese of Basel in Switzerland (according to an 1828 Concordat between the local Swiss cantons and the Holy See), and then confirmed by a higher authority, today always the Pope, but previously by the metropolitan archbishop. So, for the Latin Church, we might reintroduce local elections for bishops and strengthen the authority of metropolitan archbishops (who would still need the pallium and papal confirmation).

As for the Eastern Catholic Churches in North America, of course it depends on their numbers and structures and on the facts on the ground. You need three or four eparchies to form a metropolitan province, so unless a church can muster that many eparchies, there is no way we can talk about metropolitans, let alone patriarchs. But if the Greek-Catholics could cooperate, they could have their own major archbishop at least. But as I understand everyone on this forum, this is impossible, because the differences are too great.

But at least it will be interesting to see what the Synod will have to say about strengthening communion between the Churches in the Middle East, because it may also be applicable to the so-called diaspora.


Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: likethethief] #354432 10/13/10 12:47 PM
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More news from the Synod by John L. Allen Jr., whose headline paraphrases Patriarch Gregorios III:

"In Middle East, democracy is the 'Great Jihad' "

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Latin Catholic] #354438 10/13/10 02:20 PM
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One should remember that the Latins used all their clout to prevent the Patriarch of the Chaldeans from exercising any semblance of jurisdiction for the benefit of the Malabarese, and less than eighty years ago it was stated adamantly that there could be no hope of any connection between the Patriarch of the Syrian Catholics and the Catholic Malankarese. Right now, today, there is no relationship between the Chaldean Catholic bishops in the USA and the Malabarese in the USA.

As for Greek-Catholics in the USA, don't get me started!

Fr. Serge

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #354442 10/13/10 02:47 PM
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Dear all,
I am on a month's leave from work, so have found it more difficult to follow the synod. This discussion and the links provided have helped tremendously.

Good to see the Eastern bishops being so forthright about the anachronistic limitations to their episcopal oversight. Hopefully something will come of this.

One of my fears was that this would all be about how Christians are needed in the Middle East, don't run, be friends with the muslims, keep the faith, but no concrete solutions presented. It's still early days, but by the tone it at least looks like there is going to be some serious discussion going on.

Finally, as you may remember I asked for some help compiling a list of the 15 most influential Middle Eastern christians. This was for a multimedia file that I was preparing for the synod. It is now on-line, obviously all in portuguese, but feel free to take a look.

It consists of a map with a breakdown of the situation for Christians by country; the aforementioned list; an interview with a Coptic Catholic professor who lives and works in Portugal (and speaks portuguese), and a slideshow of pictures of middle eastern christians, with an audio of an Iraqi doctor (syriac catholic) who fled to Portugal because of persecution.

You can find it all here
click on "visualizar"

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #354445 10/13/10 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
One should remember that the Latins used all their clout to prevent the Patriarch of the Chaldeans from exercising any semblance of jurisdiction for the benefit of the Malabarese, and less than eighty years ago it was stated adamantly that there could be no hope of any connection between the Patriarch of the Syrian Catholics and the Catholic Malankarese. Right now, today, there is no relationship between the Chaldean Catholic bishops in the USA and the Malabarese in the USA.

This is a pity. Surely they could benefit from a mutual relationship? The presence of His Beatitude Moran Mor Baselios Cleemis of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church at the Synod for the Middle East shows that there is a connection, at least spiritually.

Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
As for Greek-Catholics in the USA, don't get me started!

Fr. Serge

Yes, I think we have discussed this before wink

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Filipe YTOL] #354446 10/13/10 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Filipe YTOL
Dear all,
I am on a month's leave from work, so have found it more difficult to follow the synod. This discussion and the links provided have helped tremendously.

Good to see the Eastern bishops being so forthright about the anachronistic limitations to their episcopal oversight. Hopefully something will come of this.

One of my fears was that this would all be about how Christians are needed in the Middle East, don't run, be friends with the muslims, keep the faith, but no concrete solutions presented. It's still early days, but by the tone it at least looks like there is going to be some serious discussion going on.

Finally, as you may remember I asked for some help compiling a list of the 15 most influential Middle Eastern christians. This was for a multimedia file that I was preparing for the synod. It is now on-line, obviously all in portuguese, but feel free to take a look.

It consists of a map with a breakdown of the situation for Christians by country; the aforementioned list; an interview with a Coptic Catholic professor who lives and works in Portugal (and speaks portuguese), and a slideshow of pictures of middle eastern christians, with an audio of an Iraqi doctor (syriac catholic) who fled to Portugal because of persecution.

You can find it all here
click on "visualizar"

Very nice website! Well done!

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: ag_vn] #354452 10/13/10 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ag_vn


Looks like a good report. Any chance of translation of at least the interviews with the two clerics?

Even without understanding a word it's wonderful to see the clergy, and religious, together is such numbers...

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Filipe YTOL] #354453 10/13/10 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Filipe YTOL

Finally, as you may remember I asked for some help compiling a list of the 15 most influential Middle Eastern christians. This was for a multimedia file that I was preparing for the synod. It is now on-line, obviously all in portuguese, but feel free to take a look...

You can find it all here
click on "visualizar"


Thank you! Between my very rusty Spanish and my husband's Brazilian Portuguese we hopefully will be able to work these out.

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: likethethief] #354459 10/13/10 08:17 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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It would be a whole lot more wonderful if so many of the Eastern Catholics were not decked out in red, purple, red buttons, sashes, and so on - giving the impression of distinguished prelates of no known religion.

Fr. Serge

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #354499 10/14/10 06:41 AM
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Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: ag_vn] #354501 10/14/10 06:49 AM
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Video from day 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MixP2__Y9o - this time it includes short interviews with the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem HB Fouad Twal and the Eastern (Greek) Orthodox Metropolitan of Mount Lebanon His Eminence Georges Khodr (Patriarchate of Antioch), who is there as an observer I think.


Originally Posted by ag_vn

I forgot to mention (for those who don't know who they are), these two clerics are the Maronite Patriarch HB Cardinal Mar Nasrallah Boutros Sfeir and the Melkite Patriarch HB Gregorios III Laham.

Re: Special Assembly for the Middle East of the Synod of Bishops begi [Re: Filipe YTOL] #354502 10/14/10 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Filipe YTOL
Finally, as you may remember I asked for some help compiling a list of the 15 most influential Middle Eastern christians. This was for a multimedia file that I was preparing for the synod. It is now on-line, obviously all in portuguese, but feel free to take a look.

It consists of a map with a breakdown of the situation for Christians by country; the aforementioned list; an interview with a Coptic Catholic professor who lives and works in Portugal (and speaks portuguese), and a slideshow of pictures of middle eastern christians, with an audio of an Iraqi doctor (syriac catholic) who fled to Portugal because of persecution.

You can find it all here
click on "visualizar"


Nice presentation, well done! smile

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