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Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! #355184 10/28/10 08:03 PM
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theloveofwisdom Offline OP
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I'm sorry, I tried to PM this to "Orthodox Catholic" and "Father Serge Keleher" but it seems PMs are disabled.

I have a question for these 2 users:
1. "Father Serge Keleher"
2. "Orthodox Catholic"
But since this is an open forum, anyone of coarse is free to chime in.

My question is regarding this statement, and others like it that appear over and over on this forum from the user "Orthodox Catholic":

"In 1904, in response to a petition to this effect from Andrew Sheptytsky, the Vatican recognized the Russian Orthodox Saints in the Orthodox calendar for veneration by the Russian Catholics."

There are literally over 10 different instances of this statement made by "Orthodox Catholic", and a couple of other users. I am aware of the decree in 1940 by Pius XII that appears in Butler's Lives of the Saints, but I know nothing about the supposed 1904 decree.

My question is what is the source of the action taken in 1940 by Pius XII? Does anyone have any info on this? If "Orthodox Catholic" is right about the 1904 petition, then, what is the document called?? How can one obtain it?

The reason I want the two users I pointed out to address this issue is because by extensively searching this forum for an answer- I seem to have encountered a contradiction ... I need help clarifying.

There are MANY MANY posts where "Orthodox Catholic" makes a references to this 1904 decision.

But when asked about sources or documentation "Orthodox Catholic" appeals to "Father Serge Keleher" .

Case in point:

"Orthodox Catholic" states:

Quote

Re: Venerating Orthodox Saints
Orthodox Catholic
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22279
Loc: Canada Dear Edward,

Christ is Born!

Met. Andrew Sheptytsky petitioned Rome to allow for the veneration of all Orthodox saints in the Russian Orthodox calendar by the Russian Catholic Church.

The petition was granted in 1904.

Alex



"Edward Yong" Responds:
Quote

#123161 - 01/10/04 12:18 PM Re: Venerating Orthodox Saints

Edward Yong
Member

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 708
Loc: Singapore Christ is Born!

Dear Alex,

Thank you very much for that one, it'll be useful - is there a document reference?

Many thanks,

Edward



"Orthodox Catholic" responds:
Quote

Re: Venerating Orthodox Saints
Orthodox Catholic
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22279
Loc: Canada Dear Edward,

The best person to consult on references in this matter is none other than Fr. Serge Keleher - he was the one who first introduced me to these issues and I know he has copies of all the references.

As he told me, "We don't question each other's (Catholic and Orthodox Church) canonizations."

He himself attended Orthodox canonizations of Saints where RC prelates were in attendance, venerated the icons of the newly glorified ORthodox saints and took copies with them as they left!

Alex




H O W E V E R :

When "Father Serge Keleher" is directly asked about the 1904 decree by "griego catolico" :
Quote

Re: Sept 25: A Roman Catholic Mass for a Russian Orthodox Saint
griego catolico
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Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 722
Loc: Sunny California Quote:
Originally posted by Serge Keleher:


Thus, when the Russian Greek-Catholic service-books were prepared in the nineteen-thirties, forties and fifties, a considerable number of Saints whose glorification had originally been done in Kyiv and Moscow were included - such as Saint Serge of Radonezh. This was done with the Imprimatur of Pope Pius XII.
Dear Father Serge,

It has been posted previously on this Forum that Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky petitioned Rome to ask for permission to allow Russian Byzantine Catholics to venerate Orthodox Saints, which was approved in 1904.

Could you provide further details about this? Is there any reference I can consult?

Thank you.

God bless you.

griego



"Father Serge Keleher" responds:

Quote

Re: Sept 25: A Roman Catholic Mass for a Russian Orthodox Saint
Fr Serge Keleher
Member

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5456
Loc: Dublin I am unaware of any action having been taken on this matter in 1904. If you can track down the previous posting, it might be best to ask the contributor for a source.

Fr Serge


confused confused confused

Well, unless I'm mistaken, it seems that "griego catolico" did not make the effort to track the previous poster. I'd like to do that. I believe that poster is "Orthodox Catholic".

Please, this information is very important to me.

So in short, I ask 2 questions-

1. Are the events claimed regarding Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky to have occurred in 1904 true? Or is 1904 a typo of 1940 that seems to have gotten spread around as fact. If they are true, what are the exact references to these events that one could look up? What record of these events is there? I would like documentation please.

2. I know the decree regarding the Russian saints in 1940 by Pius XII DID happen. It is recorded in Butlers Lives of the Saints as a footnote to Sept 25, Saint Serguis of Radonezh's feast day, and it is in the Russian Church's Calendar now. However, what is the name of this decree? How can one get a hold of it? I would like to study this issue. I would like documentation please.
PLEASE HELP!!

This information can help in the conversion to the catholic faith if a friend of mine.

Thank you all.


--
May the Heart of Jesus in the most Blessed Sacrament be praised, adored, and loved with grateful affection, at every moment, in all the tabernacles of the world, even to the end of time. (Pius IX, Feb 29, 1868)

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355211 10/29/10 02:01 AM
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Glory to Jesus Christ!

This is not the reference that you are looking for (I'm sorry to say), but it may help:

"In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium" (Martyrologium Romanum, page 536).

"In the monastery of the Most Holy Trinity in the region of Moscow of Russia, of the holy Sergius of Radonezh, who was first a hermit in savage woods, . . . "

(Cited from http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10863.0; I have not verified it by looking at the book myself.)

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355216 10/29/10 05:30 AM
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Hello theloveofwisdom,

Thank you for starting this thread. It's nice to know that I am not the only one wondering whether the 1904 reference is actually a typo. I too would like to read the documents and/or decrees that recognized the sanctity of the 21 Russian Orthodox saints by Rome and their inclusion in the Roman Catholic martyrology.

It's been quite some time since Orthodox Catholic (Alex Roman)has been actively posting on this Forum; he is missed by us who regard him with great respect. I have learned a lot from his posts. Father Serge still posts on this Forum.

As you mentioned, Orthodox Catholic says he learned of the 1904 petition from Father Serge Keleher, but Father Serge states he is not aware of such a petition. confused

In trying to find more on this topic, I discovered the following blog, The Banana Republican, in which the blogger, Mr. Will R. Huysman, has been trying to track down the decree of Pope Pius XII of 1940.

In his post, Post-1052 Common Saints (Sept. 25, 2009), he lists 23 Orthodox saints who have received recognition "on *official* Catholic calendars (Roman Martyrology; Ruthenian, Melkite Greek Catholic, and Ukrainian Greek Catholic) or Liturgies (Russian Catholic Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom), or mentioned as ecclesiastically approved in reliable print sources".

In his post of March 16, 2010, Ven.Pope Pius XII & St. Segius of Radonezh , he states that he will look through the Acta Apostrolicae Sedis of 1940 in search of the decree.

In a later post, he states that the decree could not be found in the 1940 AAC.

Oh, well! cry
I wish I could provide you with more information, but at this point I have hit a dead end.






Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: griego catolico] #355218 10/29/10 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by griego catolico
Thank you for starting this thread. It's nice to know that I am not the only one wondering whether the 1904 reference is actually a typo. I too would like to read the documents and/or decrees that recognized the sanctity of the 21 Russian Orthodox saints by Rome and their inclusion in the Roman Catholic martyrology.

It's been quite some time since Orthodox Catholic (Alex Roman)has been actively posting on this Forum; he is missed by us who regard him with great respect. I have learned a lot from his posts. Father Serge still posts on this Forum.

...

In trying to find more on this topic, I discovered the following blog, The Banana Republican, in which the blogger, Mr. Will R. Huysman, has been trying to track down the decree of Pope Pius XII of 1940.


As my brother, GC, notes, Alex hasn't posted here in some time.

Will Huysman (a theology student at Fordham, convert to Catholicism, and the blogger at Banana Republican), on the other hand, is also member here, although he only posted a few times and hasn't been here in about a year. It may be possible to PM him through the system, if he has PMs enabled for forwarding through his e-mail. He posted as Raphael.

A thread in which Wil raised some of these issues here can be read at Eastern Catholic Saints

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: catholicsacristan] #355222 10/29/10 12:56 PM
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griego catolico Offline
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Originally Posted by catholicsacristan

"In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium" (Martyrologium Romanum, page 536)...

(Cited from http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10863.0; I have not verified it by looking at the book myself.)


I can verify that it comes from the Martyrologium Romanum, the official martyrology of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC); therefore, Saint Sergius is recognized officially as a saint by the RCC.

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: Irish Melkite] #355225 10/29/10 02:19 PM
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I'm mildly surprised St. Seraphim of Sarov isn't on the list (unless I missed something). Not that I'm going to wait around until Rome "approves" his veneration - I just go ahead & venerate/invoke him anyway.

I was quite pleased to see that the Orthodox Martyrs of Vilnius are on the list - I posess an icon of them and hope to benefit from their holy intercessions.

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355228 10/29/10 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Will Huysman (a theology student at Fordham, convert to Catholicism, and the blogger at Banana Republican), on the other hand, is also member here, although he only posted a few times and hasn't been here in about a year. It may be possible to PM him through the system, if he has PMs enabled for forwarding through his e-mail. He posted as Raphael.

A thread in which Wil raised some of these issues here can be read at Eastern Catholic Saints


In addition to looking through the Acta Apostrolicae Sedis for the Holy See's recognition of Saint Sergius, Raphael also looked for the Holy See's recognition of Saint Gregory Palamas. In his post, The Catholic Cult of St. Gregory Palamas: Answer to a Friend (June 18, 2010), he writes :
Quote
Despite my best efforts,... I could not find information on the Catholic cult of St. Sergius of Radonezh (September 25) in AAS 1940-1941, nor could I find information on the Catholic cult of St. Gregory Palamas in AAS 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1980, 1999, 2000, 2001, or 2004. I don't think it's in there, but if any of you, my good and faithful readers, can find it, God's blessings be upon you.


Anyone interested in going through the AAS in search of the decrees?

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: griego catolico] #355229 10/29/10 06:38 PM
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...he states that he will look through the Acta Apostrolicae Sedis of 1940 in search of the decree.


I've looked through the AAS, there is nothing there. BTW the new translate.google.com is imensly helpful for sifting through all that Latin.

The unfortunate thing is that the online posted AAS (Acta Apostrolicae Sedis) only goes back to 1909. But then again, I'm not sure if such a decree is of such a nature that it would be included in the AAS.

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355230 10/29/10 06:41 PM
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I really wish Fr. Father Keleher would chime in. I'm new here, is there anyway to direct this post to his attention??

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355231 10/29/10 07:58 PM
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I will alert both these posters (Fr. Serge Keleher and Dr. Alex Roman; aka:Orthodox/Catholic) by email of your post. Although Fr. Serge is still an active member, Dr. Alex Roman is not, though he may send me a response to your inquiry to post for him.

Be patient. smile

Alice, Moderator

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355250 10/30/10 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by theloveofwisdom
The unfortunate thing is that the online posted AAS (Acta Apostrolicae Sedis) only goes back to 1909. But then again, I'm not sure if such a decree is of such a nature that it would be included in the AAS.
1909 is the first year for the AAS so the online archive is complete except for the most recent years. A similar periodical, the Acta Sanctae Sedis, covers the years 1865-1908.

A lead suggested here is Fr. Alphonse Raes, S.J. "La première édition romaine de la liturgie de S. Jean Chrysostome en staroslave," Orientalia christiana periodica 7 (1941): 518-526. It may point to the source of the authorization.

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: ajk] #355398 11/02/10 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
[quote=theloveofwisdom]
A lead suggested here is Fr. Alphonse Raes, S.J. "La première édition romaine de la liturgie de S. Jean Chrysostome en staroslave," Orientalia christiana periodica 7 (1941): 518-526. It may point to the source of the authorization.

This article says (p. 518) that, in a 12/21/1934 motu proprio, Pope Pius XI of Rome of happy memory commissioned the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Church to publish liturgical books for Russian Catholics (AAS 1935:66). On the same page, Fr. Raes says that the first Roman edition of the Russian Catholic liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was published in published in "Rome, Typographie de Grottaferrata 1940. In-8º, 112 pages." That is the only relevant AAS citation in the whole article.

The calendar omitted Peter of Moscow (1308-1326) and Alexis of Moscow (1354-1378) because they were consciously dependent on the Constantinople Patriarch when he was clearly in schism from Rome (art. cit., p. 521). It also omitted Jonah of Moscow (1448-1461) and Philip of Moscow (1566-1568) because they rejected the Ecumenical Council of Florence (p. 521).

Why did the Liturgy include Nicetas of Novgorod (†1108), Leontius of Rostov (†1077), Barlaam of Khutyn (†1192), and Sergius of Radonezh (†1392)? Fr. Raes theorizes that they did not express schismatic sentiments (i.e., exhibited no pronounced anti-Catholic prejudices) and in their state of eremitic wilderness life, were probably never posed the question "for or against Rome?" (p. 521).

Some post-1054 saints common to Orthodox and Catholic calendars were, in fact, in communion with the Apostolic See, such as many 11th- and 12th-century holy monks from Kiev, according to Fr. Yves Congar, O.P. of happy memory, "A propos des saints canonisés dans les Eglises orthodoxes," Revue des sciences religieuses, 22 (1948), p. 246.

I hope this helps! God bless you & yours. Pray for me, a sinner.

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355412 11/03/10 10:35 AM
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Epiphanius Offline
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Originally Posted by theloveofwisdom
My question is regarding this statement ... "In 1904, in response to a petition to this effect from Andrew Sheptytsky, the Vatican recognized the Russian Orthodox Saints in the Orthodox calendar for veneration by the Russian Catholics."

LW,

I know this doesn't answer your question in full, but since no one else has pointed this out, it was my understanding that Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytsky) worked very hard to eliminate the many latinizations that had come into the UGCC over the preceding centuries, and that among his accomplishments was the restoration of the observance of the Second Sunday of the Great Fast in honor of St. Gregory Palamas. It was also my understanding that he did this with the approval of Pope Pius X.

I am not aware of anything beyond this with regard to the recognition of post-schism saints in the UGCC.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: Epiphanius] #355465 11/04/10 10:38 PM
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theloveofwisdom Offline OP
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Epiphanius,

Quote
... among his accomplishments was the restoration of the observance of the Second Sunday of the Great Fast in honor of St. Gregory Palamas. It was also my understanding that he did this with the approval of Pope Pius X.


Do you happen to have a reference for this? This would be helpful if you had a reference.

Thanks

Re: Documentation on approval of post-schism eastern saints..PLEASE!! [Re: theloveofwisdom] #355480 11/05/10 03:10 AM
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griego catolico Offline
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Originally Posted by theloveofwisdom
Epiphanius,

Quote
... among his accomplishments was the restoration of the observance of the Second Sunday of the Great Fast in honor of St. Gregory Palamas. It was also my understanding that he did this with the approval of Pope Pius X.


Do you happen to have a reference for this? This would be helpful if you had a reference.

Thanks


Yes, I too would like to see a reference. According to the late Jaroslav Pelikan's book, Confessor Between East and West: a Portrait of Ukrainian Cardinal Josyf Slipyj, it was Cardinal Slipyj who was responsible for the restoration of St. Gregory Palamas.

Click here for more info.

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