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Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355568 11/07/10 07:39 PM
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Thanos888 Offline OP
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Johnzonaras,

The Coptic Orthodox Church uses the creed of Saint Athanasious. Whether he modified it or not from a previous creed is neither here nor there. What is important is that his creed didnt have the word Filoque in there; yours does.

Its quite remarkable that you consider him a defender of the faith for you, yet you seem to take lightly what he defended.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355602 11/09/10 01:04 AM
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Thanos, I am a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church so the last time I checked, unless you know something I don't, the EOC's version of the Creed does not have the filioque in it.


Last edited by johnzonaras; 11/09/10 01:15 AM.
Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355606 11/09/10 02:58 AM
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StuartK Offline
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The Coptic Orthodox Church uses the creed of Saint Athanasious.


The so-called "Athanasian Creed" is a Western baptismal creed composed in Gaul, some time in the fifth century. It would surprise me greatly if it was used by the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Now, Thanos888 is most likely referring to the so-called Nicene Creed, which most assuredly was not composed by St. Athanasius, though undoubtedly he supported the Creed that was drafted at the Council of Nicaea (using a Palestinian baptismal creed probably introduced by Eusebius of Caesarea). But the Creed used today is not that Creed, but rather the symbol of faith issued by the Council of Constantinople, long after St. Athanasius had fallen asleep in the Lord.

The original Creed of the Council of Nicaea hardly makes mention of the Holy Spirit at all, save to mention His existence and our belief in Him:

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We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father,
Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father;
By whom all things were made
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Spirit.


But, to the best of my knowledge, no existing Church uses this Creed; all use the Creed of Constantinople, however it is named. And the Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, do not employ the so-called Filioque clause. Moreover, the entire Catholic Church professes that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father alone, and is sent forth into the world by the Son, which is precisely what Athanasius and the Father taught. The Catholic Church acknowledges that the uninterpolated Greek text of the Creed of Nicaea-Constantinople is the only ecumenically binding symbol of faith for all Christians. So, the Filique is basically a non-issue. The Orthodox won. Get over it.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355619 11/09/10 12:26 PM
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StuartK,

This is remarkable..

You are saying that the Filoque is not in your creed? But I attended a mass (a Traditionalist Mass in latin) and it was there in the creed.

Yes, I was referring to the Nicene Creed.

Before I go any further, i want to re-iterate a few things I mentioned before:

I am no theologian. Everything that I know is from my own personal reading and what we've been taught in Sunday School. Sure, I've read on Anselm and soteriological differences between us, but - i'm no theologian at all.

So StuartK - are you saying that the employment of the Filoque is NOT used or is it removed??

Thanks again for your patience with me,

God bless you all

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355622 11/09/10 02:17 PM
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You are saying that the Filoque is not in your creed? But I attended a mass (a Traditionalist Mass in latin) and it was there in the creed.


Not all Catholics are Roman (and not all Romans are "traditionalists), but even Romans omit the Filioque when they celebrate Mass in the presence of Orthodox priests and bishops. The Pope himself leaves it out of ecumenical documents, and the 1995 "Clarification" on the procession of the Holy Spirit, issued by the Pontifical Commission for the Promotion of Christian Unity, specifies that only the Creed without the Filique is ecumenical, and that the Spirit proceeds from the Father from eternity and is sent into the temporal world through the Son,

Eastern Catholics never had to include the Filioque, though many jurisdictions did so out of a misguided effort to be "more" Catholic, or to distinguish themselves from their Orthodox counterparts. Since the Second Vatican Council's Decree on the Eastern Churches, and the Decree on Ecumenism, there has been a dual emphasis on (a) restoring the fullness of the authentic Traditions of the Eastern Churches; and (b) eliminating unnecessary sources of friction with the Orthodox Church. With those objectives in mind, almost all of the Eastern Catholic Churches have suppressed the Filioque, a situation that has existed at least since the 1990s.

Last edited by StuartK; 11/09/10 02:17 PM.
Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: StuartK] #355623 11/09/10 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
With those objectives in mind, almost all of the Eastern Catholic Churches have suppressed the Filioque, a situation that has existed at least since the 1990s.


Nevertheless during the Byzantine-Ukrainian Divine Liturgy aired live every week on the Vatican Radio we can always hear the Creed with the filioque clause and the references to "all orthodox Christians" substituted with "all Chrisitans".

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: StuartK] #355630 11/09/10 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
[quote]With those objectives in mind, almost all of the Eastern Catholic Churches have suppressed the Filioque, a situation that has existed at least since the 1990s.


Oh my goodness! I was totally unaware.

WOW! hahah.. this is great.

Listen, Stuart. Im NOT gay, but I love you. I do. You're an extremely handy person to have around.
I really appreciate your answer!

This is great news.

Are there any official sources on this that I could show to my Orthodox friends??

The orthodox Christian, by the way, like his or her Church, hates to compromise on spiritual tradition. We see your Church as an apostolic Church. It rightfully is. So, obviously seeing stuff like the filoque in your creeds is just problematic for us.

What is the deal now? Are they taking it off (the filoque) only for ecumenical reasons, or is it now permanently removed?

What about other stuff like purgatory? or the immaculate conception?

Thanks again stuart. You're a star.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: PeterPeter] #355631 11/09/10 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterPeter
Originally Posted by StuartK
With those objectives in mind, almost all of the Eastern Catholic Churches have suppressed the Filioque, a situation that has existed at least since the 1990s.


Nevertheless during the Byzantine-Ukrainian Divine Liturgy aired live every week on the Vatican Radio we can always hear the Creed with the filioque clause and the references to "all orthodox Christians" substituted with "all Chrisitans".


PeterPeter, you're a party-pooper!

Why is this? I thought from Stuart that the Byzantine Catholics had left out the filoque, and then you go off and add it?

But let's get this straight:
Can a person be catholic and NOT believe in the filoque?? Yes or No?

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355639 11/09/10 06:16 PM
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In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church it is up to the local ordinary to decide whether filioque should be inserted.

It is routinely inserted in Poland, and as far as I know, also in Ukraine.

I think there's no difference in Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the precedence of the Holy Spirit, the insertion is the problem.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355640 11/09/10 06:28 PM
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Hi PeterPeter,

What do you the "insertion" is the problem?

We believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only. You believe that the procession is from the Father and the Son. No?

I cannot believe still that this is an issue for division. OK.. im no theologian, but to be divided over something like this is careless in my opinion. The dogma of the filoque, as far as I can see, did more damage than good.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355642 11/09/10 06:50 PM
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It is routinely inserted in Poland, and as far as I know, also in Ukraine.


I have recordings of Liturgy at St. George Cathedral in Lviv, and the Filique most definitely is not there.

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I think there's no difference in Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the precedence of the Holy Spirit, the insertion is the problem.


The USSCB has been working for some time on the best way of suppressing the Filioque in the Latin rite, in order, as they put it, "to bring liturgical usage into line with doctrinal teaching".

Last edited by StuartK; 11/09/10 06:52 PM.
Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355643 11/09/10 06:55 PM
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Are there any official sources on this that I could show to my Orthodox friends??
The Father as the Source of the Who...Spirit in the Greek and Latin Traditions



Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: StuartK] #355669 11/10/10 12:40 AM
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The last I checked the local Ukrainian Catholic parish about 150 miles N of here still sang the Filioque. I think it is also still used in the Phoenix, Arizona parish as well.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355671 11/10/10 01:32 AM
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That's nothing. The Ukrainian parish in Riverhead, New York didn't even sing the Liturgy, and had statues of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Sacred Heart of Mary on plinths outside the entrance.

Re: The Primacy of Saint Peter [Re: Thanos888] #355672 11/10/10 01:32 AM
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You believe that the procession is from the Father and the Son. No?


No.

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