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#357924 - 01/12/11 11:00 AM
Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/15355309_AJemR#1148940557_84hVWThis happened at Theophany at the UGCC parish in Ambridge, Pa. (Western Pa.) And all of this, despite UGCC particular law for the USA, which forbids women serving in the altar. Here is the pertinent canon: Quote: Art. 462 - Only priests, deacons, minor clerics and servers (servers act in the role of minor clerics) are allowed in the sanctuary (altar). The laity who do not perform any function relating to the services must not be given a place in the sanctuary (altar). Women are never permitted in the sanctuary (altar) during any services. I am told that at this service, the girls did, also, serve in the altar, and not just outside. According to my contact, a subject of the UGCC, some are making delineations between "women" and girls". As the argument goes, "girls" are not "women", so it is OK for them to serve. Talk about legalistic hair-splitting! How do we go about determining when the girl becomes a woman (and thus, ineligible to serve), and who is to make such a determination? The traditional discipline, as I understand it, restricts service in the Altar to males who are at least ordained to subdiaconate, with an exception made for young males in the absence of subdeacons! I think I'll go bang my head against the wall a few times! Dn. Robert
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#357935 - 01/12/11 02:04 PM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: theophan]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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Christ is Born!!
It's because of formation. The attitude is that clergy are too scarce to discipline, so everyone just figures he can "fly by the seat of his pants." Then there's the pressure from the pews--if the Latins can do it and we're Catholic, too, then why not.
Bob The inferiority complex rears its ugly head, once again! Dn Robert
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#357979 - 01/13/11 08:48 AM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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I think it was meant as sarcasm.
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#357984 - 01/13/11 10:08 AM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: StuartK]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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I think it was meant as sarcasm. No, I don't think it was. Dn.Robert
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#357986 - 01/13/11 10:27 AM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: Pavloosh]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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Antiquated rule!
An insult to women and girls. No, it is not "antiquated". The function of the altar server is to take the place of the subdeacon, who must be male.The subdiaconate and the diaconate are linked to the priesthood, which must be male (the female diaconate did not involve the sacrament of Holy Orders-the male diaconate does). The reason that the priesthood is male is that the priest acts "in persona Christae". Our Lord Jesus Christ took on a male human nature. The imagery understood by the Church is that of Christ as "bridegroom", and the Church as "bride". To introduce females into service in the altar/sanctuary is to seriously compromise that imagery. Pope John Paul II originally spoke out against female altar servers, but he allowed it in 1994 for the Latin Rite when some liberal Italian bishop found a verbal loophole in the Roman Canon Law. The practice has absolutely no basis in tradition. From the practical standpoint, the role of altar server has always provided a means of attracting young men to the priesthood. Now, in the Latin Rite, it has been observed that a lot of young (pre-pubescent) boys won't serve if they know that girls are going to be there! That's just great. In a time of minimal priestly vocations, we are driving away kids who might otherwise be inclined to look into the question. There is also the angle of the "womanpriest" types in the Church, who are trying to promote women's ordination. They reason that having young girls serving at the altar might be a means of providing pressure on the hierarchs to begin ordaining women. If you have a problem with a "male-only" priesthood, I suggest that your problem is with God, because both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have declared that the Church does not have the authority from God to ordain women to Holy Orders! Dn. Robert
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#357987 - 01/13/11 10:34 AM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
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Member
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 960
Loc: Upstate New York
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Antiquated rule!
An insult to women and girls. No, it is not "antiquated". The function of the altar server is to take the place of the subdeacon, who must be male.The subdiaconate and the diaconate are linked to the priesthood, which must be male (the female diaconate did not involve the sacrament of Holy Orders-the male diaconate does). The reason that the priesthood is male is that the priest acts "in persona Christae". Our Lord Jesus Christ took on a male human nature. The imagery understood by the Church is that of Christ as "bridegroom", and the Church as "bride". To introduce females into service in the altar/sanctuary is to seriously compromise that imagery. Pope John Paul II originally spoke out against female altar servers, but he allowed it in 1994 for the Latin Rite when some liberal Italian bishop found a verbal loophole in the Roman Canon Law. The practice has absolutely no basis in tradition. From the practical standpoint, the role of altar server has always provided a means of attracting young men to the priesthood. Now, in the Latin Rite, it has been observed that a lot of young (pre-pubescent) boys won't serve if they know that girls are going to be there! That's just great. In a time of minimal priestly vocations, we are driving away kids who might otherwise be inclined to look into the question. There is also the angle of the "womanpriest" types in the Church, who are trying to promote women's ordination. They reason that having young girls serving at the altar might be a means of providing pressure on the hierarchs to begin ordaining women. If you have a problem with a "male-only" priesthood, I suggest that your problem is with God, because both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have declared that the Church does not have the authority from God to ordain women to Holy Orders! Dn. Robert You certainly will get no argument from the 'Orthodox' side. Well argued!
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#357989 - 01/13/11 10:49 AM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: DMD]
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Jessup B.C. Deacon
Member
Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 1329
Loc: Jermyn, Pa.
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Antiquated rule!
An insult to women and girls. No, it is not "antiquated". The function of the altar server is to take the place of the subdeacon, who must be male.The subdiaconate and the diaconate are linked to the priesthood, which must be male (the female diaconate did not involve the sacrament of Holy Orders-the male diaconate does). The reason that the priesthood is male is that the priest acts "in persona Christae". Our Lord Jesus Christ took on a male human nature. The imagery understood by the Church is that of Christ as "bridegroom", and the Church as "bride". To introduce females into service in the altar/sanctuary is to seriously compromise that imagery. Pope John Paul II originally spoke out against female altar servers, but he allowed it in 1994 for the Latin Rite when some liberal Italian bishop found a verbal loophole in the Roman Canon Law. The practice has absolutely no basis in tradition. From the practical standpoint, the role of altar server has always provided a means of attracting young men to the priesthood. Now, in the Latin Rite, it has been observed that a lot of young (pre-pubescent) boys won't serve if they know that girls are going to be there! That's just great. In a time of minimal priestly vocations, we are driving away kids who might otherwise be inclined to look into the question. There is also the angle of the "womanpriest" types in the Church, who are trying to promote women's ordination. They reason that having young girls serving at the altar might be a means of providing pressure on the hierarchs to begin ordaining women. If you have a problem with a "male-only" priesthood, I suggest that your problem is with God, because both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have declared that the Church does not have the authority from God to ordain women to Holy Orders! Dn. Robert You certainly will get no argument from the 'Orthodox' side. Well argued! Your comment is very relevant as to Orthodox sensibilities. We are told by Rome that Eastern Catholics have a calling, in the field of ecumenism, to foster good relations with "sister" churches who are not in communion with us, especially those with whom we share a patrimony. We are told, via the 1996 Liturgical Instruction issued by the Congregation for Eastern Churches, that we are to do nothing liturgically that would alienate "sister" Orthodox churches. I would posit that the use of altar girls drives a serious wedge in fostering such relations (as does the practice of abbreviating the Liturgy, and the use of "horizontal inclusive" language). Dn. Robert
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#357999 - 01/13/11 01:01 PM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: Deacon Robert Behrens]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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No, I don't think it was. If so, I want it held up as evidence that I do not always think the worst of everyone.
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#358009 - 01/13/11 02:24 PM
Re: Altar Girls in the UGCC-Part II
[Re: StuartK]
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Global Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
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No, I don't think it was. If so, I want it held up as evidence that I do not always think the worst of everyone. LOL! Bravo, Stuart!
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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