The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
LionHippo44, Evan Gallagher, Lizzy VH, thomisticgamer, DesertPrayer
5,708 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (crule, Irish Melkite), 94 guests, and 62 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics34,957
Posts413,415
Members5,708
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 209
B
ByzBob Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
B
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 209
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm

I don't think he'll get much of an argument from the east on this one.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,436
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,436
It's not the first time that a Pope has said that purgatory is not a place. On August 4, 1999, His Holiness John Paul II of blessed memory said during his general audience that purgatory "does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence".

Full text: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j.../documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999_en.html

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Quoting catholicnews: "Unlike most Catholics of her day, he said, she [St. Catherine of Genoa] was convinced purgatory was not a place, but a process."

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Has anything actually changed here? As far as I can tell from reading the full text the doctrine itself is still basically the same - the place/ vs process distinction will make not much difference for Orthodox to whom the existence of the doctrine is the issue, not its minutiae.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 144
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 144
That is what I found odd.. why should this bother Orthodox?

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 978
Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
Has anything actually changed here? As far as I can tell from reading the full text the doctrine itself is still basically the same - the place/ vs process distinction will make not much difference for Orthodox to whom the existence of the doctrine is the issue, not its minutiae.


I have wondered if this (purgatory) was not an officially proclaimed dogma of the Roman Church but only a theological opinion (much like the Toll Houses) would the Orthodox object to it?

I found this passage from John Paul II's message mentioned above interesting.

Quote
Those who live in this state of purification after death are not separated from God but are immersed in the love of Christ. Neither are they separated from the saints in heaven - who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life - nor from us on earth - who continue on our pilgrim journey to the Father's house.


At least in my mind I see nothing un-Orthodox in this statement, but thats just my humble opinion. I would like to see what others think. smile

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 848
Nelson, toll houses are a curiosity and are nothing more than purgatory by another name. They are, in my opinion but more importantly in the opinion of far more important theologians, not Orthodox theology.

The Orthodox are as a rule however unwilling to condemn an author for just one statement. I have heard many Orthodox priests say that if they could rip those few pages out of Seraphim Rose, everything else would be fine, and it is more or less the same case with some other authors and Church Fathers - Augustine of Hippo for example.

So the problem with the purification quote you post is that it is not Orthodox. Call it purgatory, toll house, cleansing fire - whatever the name, the Orthodox will have a problem with it, because it is posited as dogma.

Unfortunately, however (and I feel great sympathy as it is an unenviable situation) Rome is in a lose-lose situation here. As in so many other things, it has proclaimed a dogma, found it has created problems, and sought to abandon the dogma. Keep the dogma, alter it or get rid of it and it loses in the eyes of many Orthodox, because all three situations bear witness to the unilateral aspects of the way in which some dogmas were promulgated, altered or abandoned(ie confirmed by something with the imprimatur of one cleric, the Pope, rather than a synod etc).

I'm sorry if this seems harsh or offensive, but I don't think anything is gained by suggesting that if the Pope puts out something that rewords or otherwise changes an idea it is going to make much difference to anything.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Hi Otsheylnik. I guess I don't flat out disagree with anything you said, but I'd like to make two points.

1. Even if rewording/clarifying the doctrine of purgatory doesn't make it acceptable to Orthodox, such clarification can still be important as a matter of principle.

2. As you say, we are in a difficult position. However, we would be in a difficult position with or without the doctrine of purgatory (e.g. Papal Infallibility and UOJ, Immaculate Conception, etc.).

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 36
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 36
Doesn't the process of theosis involve a process of 'purification', that is, of letting go?

Last edited by Siddhazen; 01/17/11 05:19 PM.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
The Latin Church claims the existence of Purgatory dogmatically.
The Eastern Orthodox rejects the dogmatic nature of the definition.

Neither side "can" change their position. It's not that they won't. They simply can't because both positions are solidly held and are considered unchangeable.

Do the leaders in both Churches see a way in which both sides can hold to their positions, even if those positions are held in tension?

How can both sides come to a common statement of understanding without one side having to change (because change is not possible for either side)?
That is really what it will take to come to agreement, on many of the issues dividing East and West.

I've seen some on here who just seem to say that they ignore what the Roman Church says as having no bearing on what they believe. I find this to be contradictory, uncharitable, and smug, and shows a lack of being able to articulate how one can hold these in faithful tension.
I wonder how the Eastern Bishops would directly address this issue.
(The Zoghby initiative, btw, doesn't directly address the issue. it address it by avoiding it with specific language).

Last edited by danman916; 01/17/11 06:37 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 7,309
Just another example of the Orthodox unable to recognize when they have won. Or perhaps they do, and victory is not enough--they want sackcloth and ashes abasement from the Latin Church, a gnashing of teeth and rending of garments, a wailing of repentance and a formal statement that "We were wrong and you were right. We have sinned, please take us back".

Ain't gonna happen, so the question is whether the Orthodox will be good and gracious winners in the name of the unity of all, or whether their real objective is just the humiliation of the Church of Rome?

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 36
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by StuartK
Just another example of the Orthodox unable to recognize when they have won.
What have the Orthodox won?

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by StuartK
Just another example of the Orthodox unable to recognize when they have won. Or perhaps they do, and victory is not enough--they want sackcloth and ashes abasement from the Latin Church, a gnashing of teeth and rending of garments, a wailing of repentance and a formal statement that "We were wrong and you were right. We have sinned, please take us back".

Ain't gonna happen, so the question is whether the Orthodox will be good and gracious winners in the name of the unity of all, or whether their real objective is just the humiliation of the Church of Rome?


I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but I find the tone of it a little disturbing.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,431
Originally Posted by danman916
The Latin Church claims the existence of Purgatory dogmatically.
The Eastern Orthodox rejects the dogmatic nature of the definition.

Neither side "can" change their position. It's not that they won't. They simply can't because both positions are solidly held and are considered unchangeable.


Forgive me for getting a little off topic, but this is an important nuance. Each side considers themselves incapable of changing their position, but neither side considers the other incapable of changing.

Think about it: if an Orthodox [resp. Catholic] said "The Catholics [resp. Orthodox] teach falsehood and always will" that would be proposing some kind of reverse infallibility!

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,759
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,759
Originally Posted by danman916


Neither side "can" change their position. It's not that they won't. They simply can't because both positions are solidly held and are considered unchangeable.

Do the leaders in both Churches see a way in which both sides can hold to their positions, even if those positions are held in tension?

How can both sides come to a common statement of understanding without one side having to change (because change is not possible for either side)?
That is really what it will take to come to agreement, on many of the issues dividing East and West.


With God all things are possible.

Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5