I have noticed that currently in the RDL, "Mother of God" is replaced by Theotokos - Greek for "God bearer" - and the suggested change is to revert back to "Mother of God".

I have no problem with this necessarily, I am just curious as to why this is suggested. Is it because Theotokos is a Greek word, and does not have much to do in the way of translating from Slavonic to English? That seems to be the obvious answer.

I am a bit biased, as having come from a Greek Orthodox background, I was comforted to hear Theotokos when I began to first attend Byzantine Catholic liturgy.

Incidentally, I see that the ACROD uses "Birth-giver of God", which is probably closer to the translation of "Theotokos" if not somewhat awkward.

I tend to favor phrasing that emphasizes Mary's role as the one who birthed Christ - specifically - rather than the more ambiguous role of "mother", as well as the differentiation from the phrase "Mother of God" which seems more common in Western expression.

I am somewhat inhibited because I neither speak Slavonic nor know the word/phrased that is used in the original Slavonic.

It's not so much a suggested change as a conscious decision, in this iteration of the Liturgy, not to alter the people's parts more than absolutely necessary, while focusing mainly on changes to the priest's parts and the the rubrics. In future editions, Theotokos may be substituted for Mother of God. An incremental approach is being used to avoid the kind of psychic dislocations that accompanied the wholesale revisions of the RDL.

That said, the RDL having used Theotokos for several years now, there seems little point in retaining Mother of God.

The word in Slavonic is Bohorodice (or Bogorodice), which is merely a direct translation of Theotokos. I think you will agree, though, that Theotokos is probably easier for the English speaking tongue to pronounce.

As Stuart notes, it was a conscious decision. Here's the reasoning for choosing "Mother of God" over "Theotokos":

1. The earlier Ruthenian translations all used "Mother of God". That it has been used successfully for a half century and has been widely accepted is a solid pastoral reason to retain it.

2. There is precedent from the Slavs for translating "Theotokos" (i.e., "Bohorodice"). Also, we translate other important terms (like "hypostais") with much less precision.

3. There is no standard amongst Byzantine Chrisitans in translating or not translating "Theotokos". I have been in ROCOR and Serbian Orthodox parishes in the last few years and heard "Mother of God". The Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church uses "Birth-Giver of God", which is literal if not literary.

4. For most English speakers, the term "Theotokos" does not evoke anything except perhaps a theological concept. The term "Mother of God" evokes a person, and a mother.

5. The term "Mother of God" is known throughout the English speaking world, even by non-Christians. A few years back just after Thanksgiving I was at the post office mailing packages. After the packages were processed the postal worker - a turban-wearing Sikh - asked me if I want to buy some Christmas stamps. When I asked him what type he responded: "Winter Scene or the Mother of God with Child". A non-Christian knew that the "Mother of God" and the "Mother of Jesus" are one in the same. Whether he believes that is one question, but to give up a term that is known and understood by almost all English speakers - including non-Christians - seem to me to be a real waste. And consider the term's usefulness in evangelizing English speaking Muslims, who already have a devotion of sorts to the Virgin Mary (whom they image when they hear the term "Mother of God"). [Yes, I might wish our inheritance from the language of the KJV and the Anglican Church included a different term, but it doesn't. But it is easier to evangelize people with a language they already know, and "Mother of God" is known.]

6. Bishop Kallistos [Ware] at the Stamford Conference (back in the 90s) noted that, while he personally prefers the term "Theotokos" to be untranslated, he also recognizes that it can be translated, and that if you do translate it the only way to do so is "Mother of God".

7. Also on the pastoral front, since the mandate of the Ruthenian Revised Divine Liturgy (which uses the term "Theotokos") several priests have noted that they have received complaints and questions about the term. Those coming from within the Church could certainly addressed with education (and none at all was offered with the RDL mandate). But a good number of questions come from visitors. A Roman Catholic, Protestant or even most non-Christian visitor will know instantly who the "Mother of God" is. But explaining why we choose to retain Greek terms and titles is a task that need not be engaged in. [But this is mostly another example like #5 above.]

Hope this explanation is clear.

John

John,

Your post has summed up my whole feeling about the whole Theotokos/Mother of God usage in liturgical texts and in conversation. Points #4 and #7 are right on. Why arbitrarily use the Greek word in an English setting? Why not just use 'Bohoroditsya' instead?

Over zealous usage of Byzantine jargon can be quite alienating and unnecessary. What I find ironic is that those who wish to suppress any remnant of ethnicity in our parishes in order to become an "American Church" are the ones who tend to use completely foreign and niche jargon, all the while purging (or wishing to purge) any hints of the native ethnicity of the parish, be it Lebanese, Rusyn, Ukrainian, etc.

UC

Regarding the Revised Ruthenian Liturgy:
If Bohorodice / Mother of God = Theotokos, has using "Pantocrator" when referring to Jesus Christ been considered?

Fantastic answers, thank you. Essentially what I figured, and I appreciate the thoroughness of the responses.

I think I've shared this story on the forum before, but it's very pertinent. We invited a couple of good friends of ours, a very genuine and devout Roman Catholic couple, to DL. Afterwards, they were both enthusastic and impressed. As we were greeted by our clergy leaving, she remarked, "I really enjoyed it, very beautiful and reverent, everything is just like we believe... but I just have one question, who is... Theotokos???"

I couldn't stop laughing, and everybody was quick to assure her that was the Greek word given to Mary. She's such a polite person though, she sang all of the reverential hymns quietly wondering who was "beyond compare"...

I have a personal bias to the usage, but definitely understand the impulse to move away from it.

Out of curiosity, was it ever explained why they chose to introduce it in the first place?

It always feels strange when the words "Mother of God" replaces Theotokos in parts of the Divine Liturgy (for example "Through the prayers of the Mother of God..."

Though there are many hymns where you cannot replace "Mother of God" for Theotokos, for example in "It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos, ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God."

If the words "Birth-Giver of God" sounds awkward in music, I wouldn't mind the Slavonic, Greek, or Arabic translations of the phrase being used in an English DL.

At our Church we use the Term Birthgiver

The designation Birth-Giver of God is certainly not usual, but then that is the point. A phrase can sound awkward until it is used; or it can become familiar if given a chance. I would submit that it is no more awkward than some of the unusual but correct designations that we encounter: unmercenary, equal-to-the-apostles, God-bearer, etc..

As for the chant setting, I considered it here (see the link to the pdf file at the end of the post; the musical setting is at the end of the pdf file). Other considerations on the style of the hymn are also analyzed in the course of that thread itself (link).

That's only one of His many titles, and could only be inserted where presently the text uses the English phrase, "Lord of All".

The fact is, Theotokos is a fundamentally untranslatable term in English. Neither "Mother of God", "God-Bearer", or "Birth-Giver" captures the sense of the Greek word in the manner of the Slavonic Bohoridice (which is a neologism, probably invented as a direct equivalent to Theotokos). In technical translation, when confronted with a word that does not translate well into another language (e.g., the German military term Schwerpunkt), it is proper to leave the word in the original language, perhaps with an extensive footnote glossing the meaning of the word.

In liturgical and spiritual writing, the same rule applies. The early Church left intact a number of Aramaic words and expressions, including Amen, Alleluia, Sabaoth and Maranatha. The Latin Church retained the Greek phrase Kyrie elieson. In this case, since no English word or short phrase captures the fullness of Theotokos, and since Bohorodice is more difficult for Anglo-American tongues, the term should be left as Theotokos.

Those who want to know what it means can look it up, which will undoubtedly be educational and spiritually enlightening.

It is a calque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque), one of many calques from Greek introduced with the creation of the Church Slavic language (e.g. theologos -> bogoslov, litourgeia -> bogosluzhene, philanthropos -> chelovekolubets etc.)



The Kyrie is not a remnant from the Greek times of Roman liturgy, actually it was introduced a few hundred years after the Roman liturgy started to be celebrated exclusively in Latin.

This gives the Slavonic too much credit for capturing the "sense of the Greek" (see below also). That one finds in the Slavonic of the Recension a TRANSLATION and NOT A TRANSLITERATION establishes an authenticity for doing so.


About as difficult as saying kielbasa (kiełbasa) rather than sausage. For us Slavs, however, simply translate into English what we have received in translation from the Greek as Bohorodice ~ Birthgiver of God. We already follow this approach for homoousion in the Creed.

.

I would agree, if "Birthgiver of God" were the true meaning of Theotokos.

"True meaning" for a translation is a tall order; a transliteration just sidesteps the issue.

Prescinding from the Greek, does "Birthgiver of God" properly render Bohorodice in English? If not, what?

In the OCA parishes I am familiar with, the use of both terms can be heard.

"Truly it is meet and right to hymn thee, the Birthgiver of God, . . ." for example.

And some prayers use the term "Theotokos."

Undoubtedly, this is done in order to make the words mesh better with the music. Gotta find those missing syllables somewhere.

For what it's worth, back several years ago, Father Ambrogio, on the Catholic Answers Forums said that the as close as possible translation of Theotokos is "She who gave birth to God in the flesh". For understandablility, Mother of God was preferred even though it isn't quite exact.

The 'tokos' in Theotokos is related to the word teknos, child. The accurate - though periphrastic - translation into English is 'She who gave childbirth to God.'

'Birth-giver of God' is not accurate, nor is it English. Try looking up 'birth-giver' in Webster, Oxford, New Century, etc. It's not there.

Mother of God is familiar, but it is not the correct translation of Theotokos, but of Meter Theou which is used alongside of Theotokos. Meter Theou is abbreviated on all her icons.

God-bearer is not accurate because 'bearer' has so wide a range of meaning in English and risks confusion with the designation of all the Saints as God-bearing.

We all know that English has an amazing ability to receive and absorb foreign loan words. And in fact, every modern dictionary I've consulted lists 'Theotokos', giving it's Greek derivation and defining it as a referent to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The adoption of Theotokos by the RDL is one of the few good changes they made.

It is as English as Bohorodice is Slavonic, and the Ruthenian Recension books are in Slavonic. The Church, the medical field, the legal system, etc., all have specialized terms not necessarily found in a standard dictionary.

English allows for the evolution of new words and compound words whose use determines their eventual correctness. Who would nowadays (meaning intuitive, used since the 14th c) question the word caregiver (first noted usage just in 1966).

Google (once a neologism noun that has also become a verb) birthgiver or birth-giver and find ample usage from legitimate sources including book titles. Had the Slav liturgy a transliterated Theotokos I could better see it in those instances in English translation -- but it's not the case. The irony is that most folks would need a dictionary to get a sense of the meaning (and that dictionary sense may be itself misleading) of Theotokos, while Birthgiver of God gives a necessarily enigmatic but intuitive image of what is to be conveyed.

To argue it's not in the dictionary therefore not English reminds me of the schoolmarm approach to English usage that forbid, for instance, the split infinitive ("to boldly go") and ending sentences with prepositions. And as Churchill (allegedly) responded when corrected about the latter, This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put.

As long as Mary of Nazareth answers to Theotokos/Bohorodice/Mother of God, the use of these modes of address are OK with me.

My parents taught me that the Blessed Virgin Mary is the
MOTHER OF GOD / BOHORODITSE and that she always will be.
"Theotokos" is foreign to us Slavs.

How truly good for "us Slavs". But consider this: there ain't enough of "us Slavs" to sustain the so-called "Slavic Churches" in the United States. The future belongs to people like me and my family (not a drop of Slavic blood among us, but two at least who can speak Slavic languages better than most priests), who deliberately chose to join a "Slavic Church", so if you care about more than just keeping things going until you shuffle off this mortal coil, perhaps you might think about how to make the Slavic Churches more than just Slavic. As Kyr Kallistos trenchantly noted, "The day is coming when no one will be an Orthodox Christian [or a Greek Catholic, I might add] who does not consciously choose to be one".

What a pessimist you are. Thank God you are where you are at!

Further, what in the world does "Mother of God" and "Slavic" do to you that you rant so???
YOY!

John and Wendy were driving down the road on a beautiful Saturday afternoon and saw that a church was having a rummage/food/craft sale in the hall. The building complex being rather humble and run down, was full of people, both parishioners and browsers.

Realizing that this would be the *only* opportunity of the year that the parish opened its doors to the public, a few over-zealous but well-meaning parishioners were stationed inside of the church building itself to give a quick tour and to showcase that in fact, this building complex does house a church.

John and Wendy, seeing that the church doors were open, and noticing the slight scent of incense and the occasional chanting of monks from a CD player, they decided to step inside.

They were quickly and enthusiastically greeted by Varlaam (Bob) and Panteleimon (Craig).

Varlaam, the more outspoken of the two, started out thus:

"Well, welcome to our Temple of the Entrance of the Most Holy and Ever-Blessed Theotokos into the Temple. We are Eastern Christians in spiritual communion with the Church in Rome. Notice how I didn't say Rite because we aren't a Rite, we are a Church, one of twenty-two. Anyways, this is the Narthex, or at least what the West calls the Narthex, but in the Byzantine East, this represents the fallen world and the Holy Mysteries of Illumination and Chrismation of infants begin here, along with the Holy Mystery of Crowning. Over here you can purchase candles that, unlike in the West, only burn for an hour and are made of beeswax and come from the Holy Mountain."

At this point, Panteleimon interjected, "No, not the Holy Mountain, but Jordanville."

Varlaam then continued, "Thank you, Panteleimon. He is correct. Jordonville is the ROCOR Monastery in New York that is more conservative than its counterpart, St. Tikhon's of the OCA, formerly the Metropolia.

Anyways, you leave the Narthex, the room with the lower ceiling representing the fallen world and where candles are sold and you enter the Nave. You will see that we still have Latinizations in this parish, most noticeably pews and the nail holes from where the Stations of the Cross used to be located until some of the old Babas of Thrice-Blessed Memory fell asleep in Christ and we took them out because we were inspired when our ECF group read Orientale Lumen.

Regrettably, this Temple still has pews unlike Brampton. Over there in Brampton, the women stand on the left with babushkas, and the men stand on the right. Some of them even cross their arms like the Old-Believers do in Eire. But I digress.

The most noticeable feature in this church, besides the pews, is the Templon, or Iconostas. Some say Iconostasis, but I prefer Iconostas. On the bottom left is the Holy Wonder-Worker of Myra and Lycea, Nicholas. Next to him is a deacon door and that is the Holy Bodiless Power, the Archangel Michael. Next to that is the Theotokos, the patroness of this Temple, the Temple of the Entrance of the Theotokos into the Temple. In the middle are the Holy Doors, which have the Icon of the Annunciation of the Holy Bodiless Power, the Archangel Gabriel to the Theotokos, who is the Patroness of this Temple.

Panteleimon again interjected, "In ROCOR they call them the Royal Doors. I also read that at St. Vladimir's Seminary, they are very small and look like saloon-type doors from old Westerns. But that was probably a Schmemann innovation."

Varlaam, slightly annoyed, continued, "As I was saying, below that Icon are the Icons of the Four Evangelists. To the right of that is the Icon of Christ. Next to Christ is another deacon door that depicts the Protomartyr and Protodeacon Stephen. And on the far right contains the icons of Sts. Cyril and Methodius, the Equal-to-the-Apostles and Enlighteners of the Slavic Lands. In properly appointed temples, the far right icon of the Iconostas would be reserved for the Patron of the Temple, and in this case, the Patroness, the Entrance of the Theotokos.

Directly above us is the dome and that icon up there is of the Pantocrator. Hanging from the Pantocrator is the Horos, or what the West would call a Chandelier. Notice the double-headed eagle, which represents Holy Byzantium."

Again, Panteleimon interjected and said, "In ROCOR, the double-headed Eagle represented Holy Russia and the Passion-Bearer, Nicholas the Tsar, who was recently glorified along with his family."

Varlaam then continued, "Thank you, Panteleimon. Here in front of the Iconostas is the Tetrapod, which is not a dinosaur, although sometimes they get confused because of the name. This round-looking staircase is called the Amvon. Behind the Iconostas is the Holy Place, where one finds the Holy Table, the Holy Proskomedia Table, where the Diskos and Chalice are kept until the Cherubikon. On the Holy Table one finds the Kivot and the Blessing-Cross. Behind the Holy Table you find the processional cross and ripidia, which depict the Six-Winged Seraphim, who hover aloft on their wings, of which two cover the face, two cover the feet, and the other two are used to hover aloft. That icon above the Holy Table in the Holy Place is called the Oranta, which is an Icon of the Theotokos of Protection, but regrettably, it is a canvas glued onto the wall and not an authentic fresco.

Unlike in the West, only males are allowed in the Holy Place. Our Altar Servers, Acolytes as you say in the West, vest a subdeacons and wear orarions."

John and Wendy, until this point very quiet and perplexed, asked, "So this is a Temple. Are you guys Jewish?"

Panteleimon answered, "No, no, we aren't Jewish. We are Orthodox."

Varlaam clarified, "In Communion with the Bishop of Rome."

John and Wendy said, "OK so you are Greek Orthodox, right?"

Varlaam said, "Actually, we are Greek Catholics that are Orthodox in Communion with the Bishop of Rome."

John and Wendy then said, "So do you guys have Baklava for sale?"

Varlaam said, "No. But we have Kielbasa and Borscht for sale."

Patiently smiling and feeling an uncomfortable moment of silence, John and Wendy graciously thanked Varlaam and Panteleimon for their tour. On the way out, John asked Panteleimon, "So who is ROCOR?" Panteleimon's faced beamed and he replied, "ROCOR was apart of the OCA, which at the time was the Metropolia, which was apart of the MP but after the Great Revolution, things became convoluted and ROCOR and the OCA somewhat split. ROCOR was in Communion with the Serbs, but not GOARCH, AOCNA, ACROD, the EP, UOC, or the Copts." John asked, "The Cops? You mean the police?" Panteleimon said, "No, the Copts. The Police are band. Anyways, this church is apart of the UGCC which used to be united with the BCC, but those split in the 20's because the BCC faithful thought of themselves as Rusyns and the UGCC faithful were just crazed nationalists who thought that Rusyns were Ukrainians but were too much like Russians because Rusyn sounds too close to Russian. But we aim to eradicate the ethnicity of this parish so we can be like the OCA, while still being in the UGCC. Interestingly enough, a lot of the OCA in the Rust Belt have family members in UGCC, BCC, ACROD, and ROCOR (but only because they left because of the Old-yet-somewhat-modified-Revised Calendar), and vice versa, so technically we are related to the OCA which is why people like Varlaam over there want Schmemann reforms, but I am more of the school of Jordanville and the Old-Believers, but not the priestless ones in Oregon. Please take this brochure that shows how we differ from Rome but are the same with the Orthodox. So much the same that Pasius (Harry), Varfolomey (Patrick), and Christodorofos (Larry) all Dox'ed."

Wendy, returning from the hall with the Kielbasa and Borscht, met her husband by the doors to the church, thanked Varlaam and Panteleimon for their tour and history lectures, and walked to the car. John said, "Honey, these people are crazy. I still don't know if they are Russian or Greek or whatever. They don't even have baklava!" Wendy replied, "Sweetie, I don't think they are Christians because they kept calling it Temple Theotokos, kind of like that Temple Beth Jacob on the other side of town!" John said, "Well, whatever they are, they sure have their strong convictions."

Varlaam and Panteleimon waved good-bye as John and Wendy drove off. Then Varlaam said to Panteleimon, "I bet they were really taken in by the whole aura of our Temple. We'll probably see them tonight for the All-Night Vigil with Litya, and then tomorrow for Orthos and then the Divine Liturgy of St. John the Golden-Mouthed."

Panteleimon shook his head in disbelief and said, "Come on, Varlaam, Litya is only served with the All-Night Vigil on the eve of a Great Feast, such as the Leave-Taking of the Post-Feast of the Third Finding of the Head of the Holy Forerunner, Prophet, and Baptist, John as it was transferred from Hieropolis to Constantinople. "

Above is a slightly exaggerated reason why I don't like using "Theotokos." Blessed Great and Holy Week, everyone!

I saw neither ranting nor pessimism in StuartK's posts on this topic. He tends to be a bit sharp and to the point.

We're all gonna have to downplay the ethnic orientation of our Churches, Orthodox and Greek Catholic IF we want them to survive, flourish and attract new members. At some of the UGC parishes it's hard to tell where spirituality begains and nationalism leaves off and the same is true of other "ethnic" communities.

Eastern Christianity will have to appeal to the general public and giving the impression that our communities are little more than ethnic clubs with a little dash of somewhat alienating, odd-ball religiosity ain't gonna cut it.

We're here to share our faith and proclaim Good News and hope to people who have experienced a lot of bad news and are on the edge of despair. It ain't about kielbasa or retsina or moussaka or blini but it IS (or should be) all about JESUS.

I agree that the ethnicity will have to be downplayed, but not suppressed, eradicated, or swept under the rug.

What I was trying to illustrate above is a somewhat exaggerated version of "de-ethnification" of a parish, only to be replaced with extreme "Easternization," which is nothing more than a bunch of Greek terminology foreign to the vast majority of parishioners and definitely foreign to the majority of visitors to that parish. And to what purpose does it serve? I believe it is a mixture of self-loathing and insecurity over the founding ethnicity and jurisdiction of the parish coupled with an obsession to distance oneself as much as possible with anything and everything Latin. I would also add a touch of "we must do this to impress the Orthodox" into the mix as well.

The irony is that while people clamor for Eastern (Greek) terminology as highlighted in my post above for the sake of using Eastern (cool sounding Byzantine, non-Latin, in-the-know) terminology, most Eastern Catholic parishes, priests, bishops, etc., have not made the slightest attempt to transform our whole Church into something indistinguishable from the Orthodox, except for a few gratuitous Hellenic words.

Sister Mary Byzantina asks her grade school students: "What is the first thing you think of when you hear someone say 'Roman Catholic Church'?
Little Johnny replies: "Bingo".
Sister shakes her head and asks: "What do you think of when you hear someone say 'Byzantine Catholic Church'?
Little Vera replies: "Pyrohy".

I think it is important for recent immigrants to have a church they can go to and hear the liturgy in their vernacular. And believe it or not here in Detroit we still get Ukrainian and Middle Eastern immigrants. Now, for the Byzantine Churches that aren't getting any of these immigrants, this is a debatable matter. Personally, I think that we should use language that makes sense and has the biggest impact on believers. Using Greek words may or may not have the biggest impact on believers. For me Theotokos is still alittle foreign.

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Sielos ilgesys has a point!

I grew up in an area where there were many ethnic communities and churches.

They were not known by the terms Roman Catholic, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, or Greek Orthodox. Everyone referred to them as " The Slovak Church, The Polish Church, The Italian Church, The Ukrainian Church or The Greek Church". But there were others of of western European origin know simply as, " St Elizabeth's, St. Margret's, St. Patrick's Holy Family ".

Interesting

Unworthy
Kolya

Same here Kolya. This is what we heard as kids back in the 1940's:
Polish Church, Slovak Church, Irish Church, German Church, Uhorsky Church [Ruthenian Catholic], Nasha Tserkva [Ukrainian Catholic], Kicker Church [Polish National and Ukrainian Orthodox Church], "Toe Kissers" [Ruthenian and Ukrainian Greek Catholics as referred to by Ukrainian Orthodox] and "Whitewash Catholics [Episcopalians/Anglicans]..
As we grew into adulthood we realized that "Kicker Church", "Toe Kissers", etc. were terribly derogatory. Fortunately, a thing of the past.