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The Slavonic ending for many prayers/doxologies is “nyňi i prisno, i vo v’iki v’ikov”. Literally translated, this is “now and ever, and to the ages of ages” (or various similar translations). For whatever reason, some Byzantines (Catholic and Orthodox) changed this to “now and ever, and forever” or “forever and ever” (“nyňi i prisno i prisno”). I won’t go into the reasons for this (it probably doesn’t matter at this point). But there is a slow movement toward accurate translations of the Divine Liturgy. I thought I might share something a RC priest friend of mine did. It involves the need to educate the faithful before necessary change is made, and getting the faithful to accept and embrace the change.

A few year ago after Christmas dinner we happened to be talking about this topic. He asked his mother to recite the “Glory be” in Polish. She immediately said: “Chwala Ojcu i Synowi i Duchowi Swietemu jak byla na poczatku, teraz i zawsze i na wieki wieków.”

He then asked her to say it in English, and she said: “Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.”

Then he asked her to translate “jak byla na poczatku, teraz i zawsze i na wieki wieków” word by word. She did so slowly, ending with “as it was in the beginning, is now, will be forever, and from this age to the next age”. Then she said: “Oh! That’s different. Why did they translate it wrong into English?”

That the Polish text here appears different than the Latin text is not important here (though it is interesting). The point here is that among the older people who are the majority in many Byzantine Churches, one can ask them to confirm the translations so that they might embrace necessary change, and lead others in embracing necessary change.

Similarly, I’ve seen individual priests gain parishioner support for the restoration of Vespers, Matins, and various authentic Byzantine traditions by appealing to the older parishioners and having them describe what the parish did 50 years (or more) earlier, and then showing them the official books from Rome, how other Byzantines do things. Sort of a Tom Sawyer approach to authentic restoration.

Perhaps this method might be useful to someone in the future.

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Very good points and I agree. But for our forebearers, be they from Slovakia or Transcarpathis or Galicia, they would have begun their prayers in the Slavonic. What is the modern Slovak translation? I suspect that is is close to the Polish? How about Ukrainian? Just wondering.

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Contemporary Ukrainian translation is "nyni i povśakčas, i na viky vični", which means something like "now and in all time, and for eternal ages".

The Polish version is virtually identical with Latin "nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum" - "now and always and for age of ages". The only difference is the customary use of plural form, "ages of ages" instead of Latin "age of ages".

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Surprised no one pointed out the original Greek wording which is "ages unto ages"

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The Latin form is in saecula saeculorum. Saecula is accusative plural and saeculorum is genitive plural. The preposition in with the accusative denotes motion into or onto. The Latin, therefore, is translated into English (using age) as unto/into ages of ages (Latin has no definite article.)

The Greek is εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn and except for the definite articles, has the same grammatical forms as the Latin. It is translated, as above, as into/unto the ages of the ages, translating the definite article explicitly. The Greek definite article in not always translated into English since it is not exactly equivalent, and so, the rendering into/unto the ages of ages, is also correct.

Summing, the Latin saecula is plural, ages, and the Greek aiōnōn is a genitive plural, of ages. Both the Latin and Greek say exactly the same thing insofar as two languages are able. To do the same in English, allowing for a classical understanding of the word age, is into the ages of ages. The Slavonic vo v'iki v'ikov is also the equivalent of the Greek and Latin (and Slavonic like Latin does not have a definite article).

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Lots of grammar being quoted here, none of our parents or their parents knew one iota about grammar and just learned to speak by listening. Its interesting that having gone twice to DLI in the Army with not even having had high school grammer and not even knowing what parts of speech, cases, tenses were I and a few others were able to excel in learning these Slavic languages without ever learning grammer just by hearing and repitition.

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Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
Lots of grammar being quoted here, none of our parents or their parents knew one iota about grammar and just learned to speak by listening. Its interesting that having gone twice to DLI in the Army with not even having had high school grammer and not even knowing what parts of speech, cases, tenses were I and a few others were able to excel in learning these Slavic languages without ever learning grammer just by hearing and repitition.

Sure, but good luck picking up Vulgate Latin, Koine Greek and Church Slavonic on the street.

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What seems to be missing here is the realization that 'ages of ages' is a semiticism like Song of Songs (Shir ha-Shirim) meaning 'the most excellent of songs'. It refers to the most excellent of ages, the duskless day of the Lord's reign. The root problem with 'forever and ever' or some variant thereof is that it calls to mind 'a very, very long time: the point is that it actually means 'outside of time', eternity, a perpetual present.

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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
What seems to be missing here is the realization that 'ages of ages' is a semiticism like Song of Songs (Shir ha-Shirim) meaning 'the most excellent of songs'. It refers to the most excellent of ages, the duskless day of the Lord's reign. The root problem with 'forever and ever' or some variant thereof is that it calls to mind 'a very, very long time: the point is that it actually means 'outside of time', eternity, a perpetual present.
This is an interesting proposal.

I know I’ve considered the Greek phrase before but I was surprised to find, and had not recalled, that it is found a number of times in scripture in the exact form as in the liturgy, that is εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn (sometimes also with an Amen and in some ancient texts small variations). A clincher on the Semitism interpretation would be to find this phrase in the LXX and then see what is in the corresponding MT Hebrew. The phase is found a number of times in the NT, especially the Book of Revelation, but only 3 times in the LXX (Rahlfs): Tbs. 14:15; 4 Ma. 18:24; Ps. 83:5; Gal. 1:5; Phil. 4:20; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2 Tim. 4:18; Heb. 13:21; 1 Pet. 4:11; Rev. 1:6, 18; 4:9f; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5.

Siniaticus Tobit and 4 Maccabees are no help since they are only extant in Greek. There is, however, the one occurrence in Psa 83.5(84:4). One finds in the MT, however, for the 5-word Greek phrase just the single Hebrew word `ôd עֹוד . This is an adverb meaning again, still, the right sense but hardly giving the intensity and resonance of the Greek.

Some other Hebrew words and phrases that come to mind could (stretching it a bit) be rendered in Greek by the liturgical phrase. The Greek phrase is reminiscent of the less philosophical Hebrew dor meaning generation and this is also encountered as some form of dor vdor / generation and generation, or e.g. in Exo 3:15

ldor dor / (lit.) to generation of generation
. The Greek here, however, is geneōn geneais / (lit.) of generations to generations.

There is also the Hebrew lolam, a long time and rendered in Greek in the LXX as found in this same verse, aionion. In fact going in the other direction, Greek to Hebrew, one can look at how the Peshitta renders, for instance, Gal 1:5. The Aramaic is indeed lolam olmin, and a Hebrew translation by the Peshitta Society is lolme olamim, directly, and not unexpectedly, mimicking the Greek. But this is inconclusive in establishing the Semitic origin of the Greek but, likewise it does not rule it out.

Also, there is an interesting blending of the Semitic generation and Helenic(?) age in Eph 3:21 (and who more representative of this blending than Paul) εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς τοῦ αἰῶνος τῶν αἰώνων, into all the generations of the ages of ages.

Has anyone studied the possible Semitic origin of this phrase or whether it is found in classical Greek or other instances of Koinē Greek?

Also, it is said:
Quote
"Saecula saeculorum", here rendered "ages of ages", is the translation of what was probably a Semitic idiom, via Koine Greek, meaning "forever."
link [en.wikipedia.org]

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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
The root problem with 'forever and ever' or some variant thereof is that it calls to mind 'a very, very long time: the point is that it actually means 'outside of time', eternity, a perpetual present.

"Now and ever and forever" calls to mind eternity to me. It could also be argued that "ages of ages" could call to mind a very long time as well. Most people recognize an age as a measurement of time/chronos. Since English has the word eon, why not "eons of eons"?


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Originally Posted by ajk
There is also the Hebrew lolam, a long time and rendered in Greek in the LXX as found in this same verse, aionion. In fact going in the other direction, Greek to Hebrew, one can look at how the Peshitta renders, for instance, Gal 1:5. The Aramaic is indeed lolam olmin, and a Hebrew translation by the Peshitta Society is lolme olamim, directly, and not unexpectedly, mimicking the Greek. But this is inconclusive in establishing the Semitic origin of the Greek but, likewise it does not rule it out.

Olam (עולם) means world or everlasting and is one of the Hebrew names of God: El Olam/God Everlasting.

Now and ever and from everlasting to everlasting?



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Aeons of aeons is a very good alternative and possibly the best, even if it could evoke a little bit of a sci-fi layer of connotation. And it is a total break with temporal time (the Kairos thread is salient to this discussion). Another possible word is era. While not as preferable as aeon, it does very concretely express an immense span of time.

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A quick online check yields:
Quote
Eon is the American English version of the more traditional aeon, which means "age" or "forever."
link [en.wikipedia.org]
Given the equivalency and the possibility of misunderstanding or not understanding I'd stay with ages of ages.

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by ajk
There is also the Hebrew lolam, a long time and rendered in Greek in the LXX as found in this same verse, aionion. In fact going in the other direction, Greek to Hebrew, one can look at how the Peshitta renders, for instance, Gal 1:5. The Aramaic is indeed lolam olmin, and a Hebrew translation by the Peshitta Society is lolme olamim, directly, and not unexpectedly, mimicking the Greek. But this is inconclusive in establishing the Semitic origin of the Greek but, likewise it does not rule it out.

Olam (עולם) means world or everlasting and is one of the Hebrew names of God: El Olam/God Everlasting.

Now and ever and from everlasting to everlasting?
A little off topic here but about the Hebrew sense of olam in translation, consider:

LXX(Brenton) Psalm 89:2 Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and the world were formed, even from age to age, Thou art.

NAB Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God.

RSV Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting thou art God.

The LXX has

ἀπὸ του̃ αἰω̃νος ἕως του̃ αἰω̃νος
apo tou aiōnos eōs tou aiōnos

and the Hebrew:

וּמֵעוֹלָם עַד-עוֹלָם
ûmë`ôläm `ad-`ôläm

The Greek here is different than the liturgical form but close and there's the same range in the way it's translated. The difference in the ending is curious, the LXX having su ei, You are, while the MT has attah el, You are God.





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Originally Posted by ajk
...and the Hebrew:

וּמֵעוֹלָם עַד-עוֹלָם
ûmë`ôläm `ad-`ôläm
I should have commented on the sense of the Hebrew since it is not the common lolam: l- (to) olam (forever/everlasting/eternity etc.) This form is found in the familiar Polyeleos Psalm 135 in the refrain, following the LXX, "for his mercy endures for ever." The Hebrew is kî le`ôläm ĥasdô: because/for(an emphatic) to-forever his-ĥesed, ĥesed denoting fervent-/covenant-/enduring-/steadfast- love (ĥesed also as in Hasidic Judaism for instance).

In Psalm 89:2, however, the prepositions are mē- (out of, away from) and ad- (up to, until, as long as) so a dynamic sense of out of everlasting as long as everlasting You are God.




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