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Francois, my brother,

A caveat at the outset: to the best of my knowledge, there are only armchair canon lawyers hereabouts, albeit there are a few of us who have been involved in assisting persons to petition for transfer over the years - stretching back to the era when it was a much more complex process than it is (supposed to be) at present - you being the latest exception to the idea that it ought not be complex any more.

As memory serves, there was a previous discussion on this point - and someone (perhaps you?) suggested that the Eparch's reluctance to act on such requests might have been related to a prior instance in which he somehow got 'burned'. My supposition would be that either that is the case, he is ignorant of his own authority, or he is afraid to exercise it. Regardless, ...

As to the Nuncio's involvement, I suspect that it got sent to him because, prior to promulgation of the current Canons, it was a Nuncio's place to act on such (and, in some very few and limited circumstances, may still be - see below). Back then, any such petition, accompanied by the recommendations of the Latin and Eastern hierarchs involved, was forwarded to the respective Nuncio, who made the final determination on Rome's behalf.

With the decentralization that accompanied the Canons, the Nuncio's role essentially disappeared and such matters were ordinarily to be decided between the two hierarchs. 'Rome' (read that as 'the Nuncio acting for Rome') now ordinarily gets involved only when the two disagree.

Logically, since the Latin hierarch gave his assent (? yes, albeit conditioned on acceptance by the Eparch) and it was the Ukrainian hierarch who demurred, I would have expected that the latter might have sent the question to his Metropolitan.

On first read, I thought thst the Eparch sent the request to the Nuncio. On re-reading, I get the impression that the Latins did so, because the Eparch declined to act. Am I right? If so, they probably did it with good intentions and, from their perspective, the Nuncio was the appropriate choice as he represents the intervening authority between them and Rome.

However, what they ought to have done was let it be and let you forward the petition to either the Metropolitan (my first choice) or to the Eastern Congregation. I say that based on the fact that the hang-up was not on the Latin side, but the Eastern one; therefore, they (the Latins) really had no standing to pursue the matter further.

I'm inclined to agree with Deacon Randy's recommendation, that you write to the Metropolitan, explaining the situation and your concerns (needless to say, without badmouthing the Eparch) and see what he might be able to do for you. I would not encourage you to use a threat, as someone suggested, of considering translation to Orthodoxy as leverage. I don't think it is an appropriate bargaining tool and it dishonors our Orthodox brethren to 'use' them as such.

Meanwhile, we'll pray for your intentions.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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Thanks Neil for your post. Very much appreciated. I guess, as the situation unfolds, you are right in your assumptions.
I'm currently awaiting my spiritual father's(UGC priest) insight on the question. As you said, there is 2 solutions to this.

Prayers are much appreciated!

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Christ is Risen!

Originally Posted by Francois
I don't know why he is involve. To tell you the truth, my RC Chancellor said to us that she would send this directly to the Eastern Congregation but it ended up at the Nuncio's desk....go figure why....Someone at the chancery had the bright idea to forward this to the Nuncio. Of course, he denied it, directing my Chancellor to close and lock down the file.

Do you know that the Nuncio did in fact give that direction? I can see why he might just send it back and not act on it if it was sent by the Latin folks and not really his business...

Originally Posted by Francois
I'm currently awaiting my spiritual father's(UGC priest) insight on the question. As you said, there is 2 solutions to this.

Prayers are much appreciated!

You will be in my unworthy prayers.

Whatever the case... hopefully you are in the best hands with your own UGC parish priest, and spiritual father. Your story touches me deeply as it does many, clearly. May it bind all of us to those thousands of people throughout the world trapped in circumstances they cannot control where someone else holds their future in an "file".

Most-holy Theotokos, Behold, we cry out to you, rejoice. Become for us a harbor and haven, for we are tossed about on the sea of adversity...

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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Why is he even involved? If you are changing from one jurisdiction to another with overlapping boundaries the only people involved are you, the bishop you are currently under, and the bishop you wish to go under.

A "letter of endorsement" from the priest of my EC parish to the receiving bishop was also required before the receiving bishop would contact my Latin bishop.

Not of use to Francois, but might be of use to others considering a change: because I remain an active catechist in a Latin parish I spoke with my Latin parish priest before writing any letters. He expressed his happiness for me about the change and hopes that if I wished to continue I would continue serving his parish, which I do joyfully. The letter the Latin bishop wrote back to the receiving bishop stated "having made inquiries" and finding no impediments he was happy to release me. I don't know if those inquiries included contacting the priest in this Latin parish but why wouldn't it? (Fr. Deacon- I just re-read that sentence... it's me thinking out loud, not intended as a contradiction to your statement, which it might sound like. smile )

I wanted to have all my ducks in a row for several reasons unique to my situation. I was aware of someone who is waiting four years and counting for something else that involves some basic paperwork, and has been told no problem... so I just did all I could to be "prepared", knowing that even so things might not move forward. Everything however went very smoothly.

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Wow, to my Orthodox mind, I find all of this hard to follow and it is almost incomprehensible. Is this whole thing evidence of the difficulties that the Christian East and the Christian West have had over the many centuries in understanding each other and communicating with each other ? By that I mean even preceding the schism?

From my upbringing, I would argue, 'no big deal.' Yet to those of you who are Latin and/or Eastern Catholic it appears to be monumental.

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It's possibly yet another manifestation of the Latin Church's overbearing and oftentimes intrusive influence within the Catholic Communion of Churches. I see the reasons behind "getting permission" to transfer from one ritual Church to another but at the same time, this requirement smacks of the legalism, rigidity and nit-picking the Latin Church is notorious for.

It probably ought not to be a big deal. Apparently it often is. SNARL...

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Wondering if all this "changing rites" is an issue back in the "old country" Seems like there was a lot of back and forth between churches depending on politics and where someone cchose to live and these days no one seems to have "credentials"

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Apart from ordination a Latin Catholic can fully participate in any ECC/OCC for their whole life time without making any changes in their enrollment.

If they desire a formal change those who choose to make a change are free to do so. When the change is from Latin to an ECC, as has been indicated here already, the only requirement is the releasing of the person from their Latin enrollment done by their Latin bishop in a letter of one or two sentences, and the acceptance of the person in the new Church by the appropriate EC/OC bishop. The person, their pastor and two witnesses sign a statement that this request is desired and accomplished, it's recorded. Period. The fact that there may be individual bishops, or priests, who are less than faithful in following the process is unfortunate but it's not because "the Church" has made rocket science out of this.

For persons who wish to change their enrollment from and ECC/OCC to the Latin Church the Holy See has reserved the jurisdiction for this because of the pastoral concern that ECs/OCs not be inappropriately encouraged in some way to leave their patrimony in seeking enrollment in the Latin Church.

IF they desire it at the time of marriage a Latin Catholic may transfer his/her enrollment automatically at their request to the Church of their spouse. An EC woman may transfer automatically to the Latin Church at the time of marriage. This is not at all complicated, absolutely not required, nor encouraged. (If the marriage ends in death or divorce the person may revert to their original Church or remain enrolled in the Church where they transferred at the time of the marriage.)

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As I understand it, these rules & regulations, are an attempt to protect the Eastern Catholic Churches from being assimilated into the Latin Church.

Unfortunately in this particular case it works to the contrary of the intent of the legislator and the legislation, but without these rules, there would be a pell mell rush to canonically join the Latin Church by Eastern Catholics (as opposed what we have now (or in the past), a pell mell informal rush to join the Latin Church)

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Actually the Canons on change of sui juris Churches was instituted to protect the Eastern Catholic Churches from loosing their numbers to the larger Latin Parishes.
One simple change of Churches is at the time of marriage and it is done just by the persons own declaration.

Stephanos I

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Again, after having lived many years in Europe and seeing people gravitating to one church or "rite" or the other without an apparent formality I am wondering if this legal issue is mainly in the US and Canada. In Europe a person declares their church affiliation or non-affiliation with the government registry office for tax purposes.

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Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
Again, after having lived many years in Europe and seeing people gravitating to one church or "rite" or the other without an apparent formality I am wondering if this legal issue is mainly in the US and Canada.

Berg, my brother,

I think that it definitely is much more of an issue in the US, Canada, and (possibly) Australia, than elsewhere (although I am aware of instances in the UK). On the other hand, despite the geographic dispersal of forum membership, the US and Canada are still the two countries most heavily represented here, so we are not as likely to hear of such cases elsewhere.

But, one also has to consider that, in Europe and the Middle East, our parishes are principally peopled by 'cradle' Carpatho-Rusyns, Ukrainians, Melkites, etc. Ethnicity and heritage are bigger factors than they are here and Latins are less likely to be seeking out enrollment in our parishes. The US in particular is a 'melting-pot' where ethnicity and heritage are celebrated in restaurants but are not necessarily the deciding factor in where one worhips.

Many years,

Neil


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Yes Neil it is an issue here as well. The oldest communities from Ottoman 'Syria' are scattered all over the continent and are well and truly if still Catholic integrated into their local RC parish. The UGCC also has similar issues with people outside a few major coast centres being 'lost'. It is just too easy to pop into the local RC church round the corner than to drive across the city to the church they actually belong to. For many they stop doing even this trip when the grandparents die.

I knew of a seminarian in Melbourne who in conversation with one of the lecturers at the seminary was discussing the matter of rites with other seminarians and the process involved then of changing rites and mentioned that Dad was Ukrainian. A change of rite was arranged before ordination. He knew nothing about the Byzantine Rite, as his family had lost the connection with the UGCC years before he was born.

cool

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